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Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 14, 2017, 10:19 PM
Post #26 of 42
(2105 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Not much you can do without proper equipment.
When I had my shop years ago, It was pre these......
After that, at the dealer we had all the equipment we needed.
But.....
These don't produce a 'code'.....only fault messages .
Read this................
Accessing the ABS diagnostics requires a scan tool (Chrysler DRB II, DRB III or aftermarket equivalent). There are no manual flash codes. In fact, there are no codes at all. The Bendix 10 system displays "fault messages" rather than two or three-digit numeric codes.
Faults are stored in a nonvolatile memory which means they cannot be erased by pulling the ABS fuse. The only way they can be erased is with a scan tool, or by cycling the ignition switch 50 times (with no fault present).
The diagnostic connector on Bendix 10 applications is located under the dash, left of the steering column. It is a 6-way blue connector.
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joezapp
User
Jul 14, 2017, 10:22 PM
Post #27 of 42
(2103 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Thanks once again, DoubleJ.
You have a pretty good understanding of the system!
I'm not seeing any red BRAKE or yellow ABS lights, but I'm finding that I'm supposed to. The CAB (Anti-lock controller module) does a check of the ABS system every startup. I probably have a burnt out bulb. I will double-check in the morning, but I don't need the lights to know there is a malfunction. The CAB stores the ABS trouble codes.
I've read of people who considered doing the conversion to non-ABS, and that it wasn't supposed to be too hard to do, but I haven't read of anyone who actually went ahead and did it. Some say it's less risky than driving with these Bendix 10 systems with their built-in risk. But I don't think I would bother with that.
It seems that diagnosis starts with the Chrysler DRB II diagnostic tool,
which pulls ABS codes from the CAB (Anti-lock Brake Controller). I think the Bendix 10 Service Manual would start there. This
is a VERY costly tool to purchase, and may present going to the dealer
as the only option. Any other options for pulling these ABS codes would
be greatly appreciated. If anyone on here had a vehicle show up
requiring pulling the ABS codes from the CAB with a DRB II scanner, what
would you do?
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 14, 2017, 10:25 PM
Post #28 of 42
(2101 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Take it to the dealer for a diagnosis. see what they say
Worth the money to find out .
Go from there
I would call first to dealers in the area and see if they have an old fart mechanic thats been there awhile and knows these systems.
I wouldn't want to keep driving this because if it decides to fail more often or all at once, , you know what that hard pedal feeling feels like and it catches you by surprise and you could get into an accident.
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joezapp
User
Jul 14, 2017, 10:30 PM
Post #29 of 42
(2097 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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We're typing at the same time, so we're criss-crossing, DoubleJ! Yes, the tool reveals fault messages stored in the CAB. I'll be very happy to start with the fault messages. The fault messages will take me to the parts of the system that need further diagnosis in the Factory Service Manual.
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 14, 2017, 10:31 PM
Post #30 of 42
(2095 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Quote " Some say it's less risky than driving with these Bendix 10 systems with their built-in risk. But I don't think I would bother with that."
Agreed .
If this was mine, even if i got my first piece of tail in this thing, I would junk it.
Not worth risking my life or others
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 14, 2017, 10:33 PM
Post #31 of 42
(2093 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Yes I'm very familiar with what a DRB tool does.
Thats why I recommend taking it to a dealer for at the very least a diagnosis.
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joezapp
User
Jul 14, 2017, 10:37 PM
Post #32 of 42
(2091 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Oh, I absolutely will not drive this again unless this is resolved. At the same time, I would really like to resolve it because I just spent money on pads, rotors, inner and outer tie rods, a wheel hub, a wheel alignment, and a harmonic balancer. And now this happened. If this happened BEFORE I did all this other work last month, it would already be junked, lol.
So as I said, the DRB II is expensive. Do you think the only way I can get that scan tool on it is at the dealer? No chance Autozone has it with their free diagnostics?
(This post was edited by joezapp on Jul 14, 2017, 10:43 PM)
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 14, 2017, 10:42 PM
Post #33 of 42
(2087 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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No, Autozone won't have it and wouldn't trust them if they did...LOL.....
You can call some local shops and see if they have one.
Some mechanics/techs own their own too . Not just the shop/ dealer .
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joezapp
User
Jul 14, 2017, 10:53 PM
Post #34 of 42
(2083 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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True. I'll talk to a couple shops around here that have been here for many, many years. They may have one and they won't charge as much. That's my starting point, I suppose, to narrow this down so that I can at least then utilize the Factory Service Manual. The manual has the steps once I know where the faults are. And if it lies in a lifetime warrantied part, then I'll go to the dealer.
I wish this happened before I did all that work last month. I would have just sent this out to pasture already.
The Factory Service Manual does indicate that if the problem is intermittent, as this is, that in most cases the problem is electrical. That is more the reason that getting the fault messages from the CAB would be helpful.
(This post was edited by joezapp on Jul 14, 2017, 11:12 PM)
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 14, 2017, 11:02 PM
Post #35 of 42
(2073 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Yeah thats the move now, get a diag and go from there.
Local shop somewhere probably can help you.
Who did the work on the brakes and hub? Can't they check it out?
One weird thought I just had and bear with me, I usually don't like thinking at this time of morning......
If they did the hub and brakes, maybe just maybe a sensor got jazzed up causing an intermittent ABS activation which would cause a hard pedal effort
This is what I posted before...
"If during an ABS stop additional force is applied to the brake pedal, or the brake pedal is released and reapplied rapidly, the driver may notice a very hard pedal feel."
Just a thought......
(This post was edited by Double J on Jul 14, 2017, 11:03 PM)
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joezapp
User
Jul 14, 2017, 11:22 PM
Post #36 of 42
(2063 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Good going, DoubleJ! I'm thinking the same thing. The Factory Service Manual does indicate that if the problem is intermittent, in most cases the issue is electrical. Maybe this is not so coincidental that this happened right after a front brake job. Maybe one of the sensors got jazzed. The mechanic works out of his house. He worked in a shop for 15 years and then went on his own.
I'll have him check those sensors out first before doing anything else. Thanks for the heads up!
Have you seen those sensors before? Do you know the location? I'm aware of them, but I don't know the exact location in the wheel.
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 15, 2017, 12:02 AM
Post #37 of 42
(2059 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Yes, I have seen more wheel speed sensors than I care to remember
They're mounted on the steering knuckle
Just remove the wheel and look behind the rotor/shield area, you'll see it. Follow the wire.
Also inspect the tone ring teeth on the axle
He'll know or should know where they are and how to check/inspect them.
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joezapp
User
Jul 15, 2017, 6:59 AM
Post #38 of 42
(2045 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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Thanks so much, DoubleJ. You've been extremely helpful! Much appreciated. That is my start point. May not be a coincidence, since the manual says that intermittent means most likely electrical. I'll report back as I progress with this. Thanks again.
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
Jul 15, 2017, 8:02 AM
Post #39 of 42
(2043 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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You're welcome.
Keep us posted
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joezapp
User
Jul 23, 2017, 10:27 AM
Post #41 of 42
(2010 views)
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Re: Intermittent hard brake pedal
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I've been singing praises to you, DoubleJ, for both bringing all this info about my brake system to my attention, and for having a good understanding of it as well. Now, you get the GOLD STAR. Your "weird thought" that I refer to above in post #40 was dead on. Maybe you do your best thinking in the wee hours of the morning?
My mechanic examined all 3 wheel speed sensors...the one for the back pair of wheels, the passenger front wheel, and the driver front wheel. The back and passenger side required no attention. The driver side was a mess. He spent a good while cleaning up that side, both the sensor itself and the axle (tone wheel) teeth that you referred to. He is confident that the issue is right there. Indeed that side, already in bad shape, got jazzed during the pads and rotor installation.
He said that while he may have done enough to stop the failure for the time being, he wouldn't consider it a long-term fix because those teeth are not good. He said for me to get the axle for ABS for the driver side so that we could put this issue behind us. I'm certainly doing just that.
It seems he's right-on with this, as I didn't have a "high hard pedal" failure at all on the way home, and I made a few stops along the way. This is the first instance of zero episodes since the issue arose.
We can consider this matter closed. DoubleJ, you did awesome work for me here, and you gave this a lot of attention. You saved me a lot of time and aggravation. You also made me know the details of the Recall 685. As it turns out, even though we're beyond the 10 years/100,000 miles, I am always entitled to a free diagnosis of this ABS system. So I know that if and when something Bendix 10-related happens again, I always will have that option as per Chrysler's extension of the warranty to satisfy the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
Much appreciated, DoubleJ. GOLD STAR. Many thanks!
(This post was edited by joezapp on Jul 23, 2017, 11:25 AM)
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