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Likely cause of Brake Hose Failure?
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gschmidt
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Jul 27, 2021, 8:36 AM
Post #1 of 16
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Likely cause of Brake Hose Failure?
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Hello,
I'd like to get opinions on how this damage could have happened. The brake hose is from my son's 1998 Avalon, it is the original hose. After sitting in the driveway for a few days, my son drove the car and his brakes failed. I later noticed a puddle of brake fluid in the driveway where the car was parked. My son claims that the hose was fine 3 weeks prior when the brakes were done. There are no marks on the other side of the hose where the damage occurs. My son said it doesn't look like dry rot to him. Thanks.
(This post was edited by gschmidt on Jul 27, 2021, 8:37 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 27, 2021, 9:46 AM
Post #2 of 16
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Re: Likely cause of Brake Hose Failure?
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That's a mistake of twisting it up when caliper was off making a pig-tail out of it! When so, they can rub on tire, wheel or what moves with wheel. It's that or debris was in wheel well whipping around so something real odd. I doubt that.
Things NOT to do with calipers is let them dangle by that hose while working or a mistake when off twist it.
It's old enough but do last usually. If other was treated like that do that one too just because brakes are done equally in pairs,
Tom
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 27, 2021, 11:45 AM
Post #4 of 16
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Re: Likely cause of Brake Hose Failure?
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I wasn't going to blame anyone but that wasn't like that BEFORE the work. Sooooo…. I'll be nice, "Pilot Error,'' if you will. That's not how they fail just getting old or without reason(s) some you just can't put caliper back on with them twisted so it doesn't happen way too often.
Sold as Left and Right sides that mid mount wouldn't fit other side. Also beware brake fluid isn't a nice liquid, will wash off with plain water but might wreck that rug if wet with fluid? Wash it outdoors if you like that rug even if you didn't see more fluid come out.
Bummer and wild danger - stuff happens to the best but most aware to check that before giving customer back a car or even put the wheel back on! BE REAL GLAD THAT DIDN'T BLOW OUT SO FAST TO CAUSE AN ACCIDENT!
Tom
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gschmidt
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Jul 27, 2021, 12:40 PM
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Re: Likely cause of Brake Hose Failure?
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Thanks guys for the responses, I really appreciate your insights. My son seems convinced that it was foul play. I'd rather believe it's not, but I have to say that when I looked at the damage, it looked like someone tried to cut it with a knife. As suggested, I do realize that something else rubbing on it could also be the cause. I have uploaded two more images, just to provide some additional (better) views.
Just to be sure... Is the damage characteristic of the type of failure described? Have you seen this pattern before? Do you guys think this could also possibly be due to "foul play"? (I have placed a camera with night vision to monitor the driveway) I realize there is no 100% pat answer, just trying to get an idea of the likelihood. Thanks!
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Hammer Time
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Jul 27, 2021, 1:34 PM
Post #6 of 16
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There is no foul play there. There is no question that was caused by the edge of the wheel rim or the edge of the brake rotor touching the hose while it rotated. It may have been only when turned in a certain direction but it's definitely chaffing from the edge of something. Those grooves are way to wide to have been done with a knife. Also they are all evenly parallel. You can see in the pattern that one side is sloped and the other edge is sudden to show whatever rubbed on it came from the same direction.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jul 27, 2021, 1:36 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jul 27, 2021, 1:44 PM
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I doubt foul play. I/we warn folks NOT to allow that.
How did you get that in YOUR hands? Just asking if I did that by mistake I'd be so embarrassed that it happened and glad no accident would do both, new for your forgiveness!
A newbie working on their own WE WARN OF THIS BEING POSSIBLE. If you want take the wheel off you'll see a backing plate or how far it could reach know it rubbed to do that.
It's fine right away that happens on turns hose isn't long enough if twisted up.
If this was a paid job I'd ask for no charge for that one or the other one.
What happens to these is because they hold wild pressure also have to turn with wheels, move up and down but maintain clearance.
When it's old age or bad luck you might see one balloon out or funky it stick locking pressure to brake but not allow returning fluid to release. That isn't showing that you or son would complain it's smoking hot so braking would pull hard one way and maybe the other on a subsequent stop when hot lost friction.
Not this, your pics are really good that hose moves and should never be allowed to touch anything.
Just look at it I'm personally surprised you have it back as it clear enough to me it rubbed - end of that.
It is or was a shop or tech that decided to keep this hose not throw both out just for age. I've seen the crimped collar you see there rust and hose blow off of how it was made - this looks good to me but can't say how good inside a flexible pressure hose really is to pull the "Reed" valve action of locking pressure.
Your call on this mistakes happen this is one any tech should seriously check to avoid it,
Tom
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gschmidt
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Jul 27, 2021, 2:52 PM
Post #8 of 16
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Re: Likely cause of Brake Hose Failure?
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Hammer Time - Yes, the grooves are parallel and wide, I noticed that too, and if it were a hacksaw, you would expect to see jagged edges. Your analysis makes a lot of sense to me and I'd rather not be paranoid thinking that maybe someone came to our house at night and did this deliberately. It also seems to me that the damage occurred on the less accessible side of the hose - which wouldn't be expected if deliberate. So thanks again for that.
Tom - My son has a couple of mechanic friends who help him with his cars at their home garages (the one who wasn't the one who did the brake job thought this was foul play). I can't really speak to that, I know that many people are "Saturday Mechanics". That is one reason I came to this forum, for expert opinion. My son kept the part because he was concerned about it and I asked him to show it to me. That's how I got hold of it. Of course I'm happy that he was able to get it fixed quickly without risk.
Thanks again, I really appreciate all of your expert advice.
BTW, the brake fluid didn't wash off the concrete, but I have had good luck with "Goof Off" concrete cleaner and it removed it completely.
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Hammer Time
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Jul 27, 2021, 3:36 PM
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Brake fluid is water soluble. It should rinse right off. It will eat paint though.
Rubber hose chaffing is something we see fairly often. I know whoever did the brake job doesn't want to take credit for that but I'm sure that's what happened. Usually what happens is they rotate the caliper when putting it on which twists the hose and changes it's position.
Another common thing is they have aftermarket wheels and/or altered suspension that causes these things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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gschmidt
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Jul 27, 2021, 4:15 PM
Post #10 of 16
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Makes, sense. Thanks again Hammer Time.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jul 27, 2021, 5:41 PM
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?? Still at this because it's worth it and knowing what happened. Hope this pic shows, OE or aftermarket says on the cap to the master cylingder to use DOT 3 brake fluid - it washes off!
Pic > Brake Fluid Cap - Master Cylinder ...autozone.com
Read it - they have since forever. If DOT (means Department of Transportation) 3 or 4 is "Hygroscopic" means it absorbs moisture/water so turns milky and washes off. No concrete OUTDOORS where I am (it gets wrecked by freezing, salts used so OUTDOORs is asphalt will stain but still washes off without so much as soap. Goof-Off is usually for removing paint or assorted things IDK if soaked concrete would absorb the correct fluid and need cleaning off some or a lot. It wipes of my working surface is concrete DOT 3 would leave it cleaner perhaps - it's dirty I work there, use paper towels and or grind in dry clay like cat litter for spills.
Dot 5 is not "hygroscopic" I think is a silicone based fluid with a higher boiling point. It's not better or worse buy isn't very common for this car nor era now 23 years old or so.
That wouldn't wash off is the clue.
OK, if "weekend warriors" are at this car don't know "brakes 101" they shouldn't be doing brakes! Real world isn't some practice ground is says what to use for products on things newer in a few languages!
No brake fluid is a real oil like even PS fluids, AT fluid is a thinner oil that's highly detergent and wrecks rubber products can't be mixed up or risk serious destruction of brake's hydraulic parts.
Those marks are just not some malicious act or IDK who would do that.
Admitted I wasn't considering altered wheels that do have to fit over brake calipers - some don't have to be correct wheels meant for use on a car with at least front disc brakes on that could explain it. Now look at other side if the same it's wrecked too if that's the reason.
New pads the caliper isn't in the same location vs dishing of wheel to hover over a caliper.
Would noobs know that. Now I seriously doubt it bet few saw a drum brake!
Said at length no doubt BRAKES are not for learning the hard way with a failures, enough goes wrong even doing things right.
Wrong wheels is fun for young folks - understood but sorry, Old Phart here it's really pretty dumb and a waste of bucks but I notice it out there.
I give you credit for caring and hearing if just Hammer's and my own experiences on this is pretty extensive now beginning to see what may explain some of this is wrong wheels! OMG the web will sell ice to Eskimos, DAD, step in if need be it's too dangerous to others if not just your son,
Tom
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gschmidt
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Jul 28, 2021, 8:22 AM
Post #12 of 16
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Re: Likely cause of Brake Hose Failure?
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Tom - You're absolutely correct, that brake fluid is water soluble and should have easily washed out with plain water. It may be a combination of things in my case, dirt in the fluid, my lack of patience, and my desire to justify my purchase of "Goof Off Driveway Cleaner" which worked the best so far on the other oil stains on my driveway!
All the best!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jul 28, 2021, 9:11 AM
Post #13 of 16
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Right. I'd do this much now if this is altered wheels being the out of the blue reason it should be doing it again! Take that off and look if the problem is chronic the wheels have to go.
Dad - it's just story now a neighbor's young son I see just busy about to be 19 is scary to watch! OMG, he's gone thru 5 cars since he got his driver's license - wrecked them IMO (none of my real biz) messing with making NOISY exhaust, really ugly wheels to me, just smile, plus these gawd awful stripes, window decals and things to me is because cars are just boring POS now compared to when I was that age.
Ahhh - a long time ago now but similar in ways. I liked my cars and didn't wreck them quite the opposite, took such insane care of them was flipping them over like crazy and buy two more in need of actually just a lot of ordinary things - like this thread!
OK, I broke down and many had no radio (optional equipment back then) and wires hanging in wait bought used ones and one or TWO speakers - imagine that?
Three on the tree standard shift was 1/2 of them, very affordable was SMART, you could have a passenger in the middle vs this junk now is the more cup holders you can put there the better crap! OMG what gives with that?
They sold those anywhere hung on a door panel anywhere.
Quickly got into luxo, land yachts, pass anything but a gas station - smile. That lost its humor when gas doubled in 1973 and again later that decade doubled again if you could wait in line by both I worked part time for gas stations at least could get fuel the cost was outrageous to me meant work harder or more - no choices.
The "PIG" cars were cheaper than small gutless crap did confuse me the issues would end but the prices didn't go back.
Imagine gas wars (in sight places would fight to sell more even lose $$ before all that spend $2 bucks did buy about 8 gallons of gas!
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>> Go check that hose again please! If new it was made to fit properly no real way other than twist up caliper to do that or already said alterations that can't stay,
Tom
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gschmidt
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Jul 28, 2021, 6:00 PM
Post #14 of 16
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Tom - Yes, will examine things closer to make sure its not still a problem. Also, now getting in the habit of checking the driveway for stains
Yes, the old days when one could be more of a DIY'er than the newer vehicles. I think that's one reason my son likes the older cars. And I am old enough to remember the gas lines of the 70s!
Take care..
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gschmidt
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Jul 28, 2021, 7:07 PM
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"Gee our old LaSalle ran great. Those were the days! ..."
(This post was edited by gschmidt on Jul 28, 2021, 7:08 PM)
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