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1970 cranks but wont start
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Ole School
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Feb 13, 2019, 8:26 PM
Post #1 of 20
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1970 cranks but wont start
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Its actually the motor in my forklift, a 1970 4 cylider LGP fuel. Had it 4 years, no problem at all. A couple days ago I hear it sputter a little but it didn`t kill, I used it a little more that day and it did it again then the motor killed at low idle. It took a few tries but it started back up, used it about 30 min with no problem, then tried to start it but would not start after trying several times. Pulled a plug and found no fire. I had a tune up kit on hand and I bought a new coil for it. Replaced coil, plug wires, dist. cap, rotor and points. Still no fire. Any help would be appreciated.
(This post was edited by Ole School on Feb 15, 2019, 5:31 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 13, 2019, 11:26 PM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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Go easy on tossing part without knowing what's wrong yet.
Points - Fine do you have specs for this thing? Ford? They as a company didn't make many 4 cyl. engines in 1970 if so could look up only the Pinto and Mercury Bobcat both failed vehicles now about unheard of.
First - does rotor in distributor turn at all when cranking? If not and I did forget how I think an overhead cam was turned, chain or rubber belt either way that is also turning distributor would be easy to rule out. Do that, rule things out fist then find out the source reason.
No spark if distributor doesn't turn would result or any reason valve timing is so far off.
Other about points know they use a "Ballast" resistor to lower voltage when you release starter motor's cranking mode to just "run" down from area of 12v to 6v to not burn out points also a condenser inside there the wires can't rub around. Set points by "dwell" meter if you can find one if a test light blinks at all at coil's negative post you can get a dwell reading.
I can find specs if you think it's a real Ford based engine wild arse guess is dwell should be about 45* for now a wild guess I'll literally go look for it both gap and dwell it was running now quickly doesn't should be something silly like that,
T
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Ole School
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Feb 14, 2019, 4:19 AM
Post #3 of 20
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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I think you right about not being a Ford motor, I think it`s a flat head Continental with a overhead cam. Yes the rotor does turn but I have no spark on the points or spark plugs. Before I did the tune up and changed any parts I tried just cleaning the points and checked the spark plugs but still had no fire to the plugs. So then I changed the coil, spark plug wires, spark plugs, rotor, cap and points and still no fire.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 14, 2019, 4:33 AM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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OK - any engine about doesn't matter if just no spark and uses points. Same thing I said will try harder. Just turn key to run and not start with distributor cap off. Now take a plain 12v (wasn't much else) the ones that light up the handle you ground the wired end ones. If points are touching they will NOT light up if you just use the poker end they will one side or the other.
That comes right from coil's negative low voltage marked neg on the coil almost always. If cranking it should blink a test light. Just do that much I want to know if any power is there and points are making any contact new or not nobody did but you are supposed to align them and if old ones had metal transfer replace the condenser if not don't IMO it matches.
Make of motor for now doesn't matter but can give you specs on other 4 cyl for settings for them so it should work but has to have power or we move on,
T
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Ole School
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Feb 14, 2019, 5:30 AM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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thanks T I will try that later today when I go to my shop and btw I did also already replace the condenser, I forgot to mention it, it came with the tune up kit
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 14, 2019, 5:52 AM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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OK: While here will say if you find no voltage at all while you have a test light (a must have thing - Walmart - almost anywhere) follow coil + (Positive) wire backwards usually towards a firewall use your judgment on a special machine like this for a "thing" the wire goes to could be removed and the other side of that. It's lowering voltage for 12V systems to points on purpose or would burn them out fast or destroy them right away.
A condenser has no known life expectancy. Just for the silliness of it said above keep the old one if separate and NO metal transfer at old points it's good. New one may not be. Can argue that but still have one from 1948 works fine! Not joking either,
Tom
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Ole School
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Feb 15, 2019, 10:49 AM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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I used a volt meter I have on hand, and with the key in the on position I checked the neg. side of coil, the 2 wires connected to the points in the distributor and put the positive lead of the meter between the points and all are receiving 1 volt. I also put the positive lead on the 2 wires in distributor to the points and cranked the motor over and the meter needle is at 1 volt and jumps when the points open and close. I have my points set at .025".
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 15, 2019, 11:19 AM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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Not sure you have conclusive results so let's try again:
With a voltmeter with probes I think you are using clip the neg of meter to ground of engine should also at body of distributor. Now test again, key on like you said for power at coil with cap of distributor off the negative is headed towards the points shows positive voltage if the points are not touching each other. If they are, either turn the motor by hand or carefully pull points apart from each other there's a reading worth something.
Not so sure a voltmeter or DVOM is going to show you pulses or blinking action so you really should find a test light. For this I'd like to see you find the one like a scratch awl, clear handle with an "incandescent" bulb inside and a pig-tail end with a clip goes to ground. Test on battery itself first see it work.
Another while there is get point on low spot of cam inside distributer. Can you just push the rotor or it's shaft and open the points? You shouldn't be able to there's the or another problem.
For a dwell meter? OMG ask around or see what you can find buy or borrow? Still used is more info for when distributor has power and works set exactly if you have the exact specs.
Just know points in a distributor of the area of them 1970: Either watch it turn while cranking or look for vacuum advance note is offset pulls a bar or rod from one side. Imagine you are going into distributor thru that is the way distributor turns. With that now look at usually a nylon type bumper that rides the cam on shaft of distributor. Put one fingerprint of electric grease on the upstream side of that bumper thing that rides the cam point would stay adjusted tons longer.
Notes: As points wear the gap physically gets smaller so with specs and feeler gauge use the larger or a range. Dwell if we get there goes UP as points are closer can be done without one just super accurate with one.
Sorry for the novel on it. They were THE way and worked for decades on end is just a lost art to just get them right and know it.
BTW: Test lights I'm talking about are almost always under $10 bucks at some point if you do this more or for other thing get the LED one also as tools go, dirt cheap.
Side warned too late. Don't drop screws that hold down points or condenser! If need be use a pencil type magnet if removing those they are near impossible to replace or if dropped down distributor up for a job to get one out!
Keep at it,
Tom
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Ole School
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Feb 15, 2019, 1:58 PM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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The auto parts store near here was out of the test lights so I came back to the shop and tried again with the volt meter. I connected the positive lead to the condenser and coil wires to the points and with the key in the on position I get 1 volt. When I turn over the motor it pulses from 1 volt to 2 volts. sort of how a light would blink it seems.
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Ole School
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Feb 15, 2019, 2:23 PM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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I forgot to mention on my last post that I am able to turn the dist. shaft but only about 1/8"
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 15, 2019, 3:18 PM
Post #11 of 20
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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Need that test light. Distributor shaft - my fault I meant side to side not free direction it rotates. I'd like to know "shaft bushing" wear and condition. It will go a little lash up and down or direction of rotation is "gear lash" it's not supposed to move much sideways such that the 4 sided cam doesn't stay put for any possible accurate point adjustment becomes useless starts off intermittent nonsense like is a maybe for what's happening.
I just want a list here to rule out this was first as it was running now new points or touched info is lost on even gap. See what I mean when you check gap tilt or push on shaft see how much more or less gap you can make - THAT'S WHAT CAN'T BE TOO MUCH is what I'm chasing with that. See a dwell meter if engine spun fast enough at all even cranking you'd see that or better when running the dwell # drops.
Still don't know how you get 1V?
Tom
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Ole School
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Feb 15, 2019, 4:58 PM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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The distributor shaft does not have any play in it side to side. The voltmeter is set on DCV in the 0-10 range.
(This post was edited by Ole School on Feb 15, 2019, 5:30 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 16, 2019, 12:28 AM
Post #13 of 20
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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We aren't getting anywhere very fast some is my fault - sorry. What is that voltmeter? I have so many assorted things for assorted testing am guessing the small analog thing can be useful if you know it works.
Any of the stuff have to know it works. Try it on a 9V household type battery marked positive and negative - all are it will show also regular batteries are 1.5V new can read more - either of those.
This machine's battery or if a vehicle now or then would make sure test stuff matched expected plain voltage right at the battery first. I still don't get the 1V reading.
Those small ones if like I think also do plain OHMs with a needle pointer. We maybe could make use of that needs testing that not now.
Where is this thing now in progress. Do you have any spark yet all back together at a spark plug or yet another tester at a plug wire? None of that stuff is costly as things go.
It's equipment you must need or wouldn't be fussing with this forklift with an engine. Understood all around we aren't even talking this fuel and don't need to if there's no clear spark the whole game begins there.
Basic stuff needed and at a loss right now. If this thing or keeping it running isn't your thing or job to take care of I'm a bit lost. You had the "tune-up" kit at the ready just trying to figure out this scene and what is being disrupted with it not working?
Forgive me - I'll fix almost anything that's serviceable automotive or other stuff lost for the moment with this might be off track and it's nothing to do with distributor anything rather upstream power and grounds before that. You tossed parts already is what worried me is possibly now the up front problem to correct back to the beginning of when it first didn't start?
In short: Test the test things so you know they work on something that does work if you can is in order. Really - I don't know if a silly test light of a dozen around me work if I don't test them first then on to some item to check.
There's some law of probabilities. Things don't work and people throw all kinds of parts at them becomes the problem and lost the original problem totally. That's a pest,
Tom
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 16, 2019, 4:58 AM
Post #14 of 20
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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Ole School - Please don't go edit more than right away it's confusing this.
Wild thought now also a wild maybe? No fire is what you said was the initial problem. OMG - is this thing low on oil? It's meant for indoor use (I think) and probably a lot of time with nobody checking a thing if that stuff runs low on oil (mechanical fuel controls or electrical) would shut down ignition explain a lot.
Just two things now to add - check oil level and find oil pressure switch how many wires go to it? Just worth the wild chance is/was the source problem?
Tom
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Ole School
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Feb 16, 2019, 7:16 AM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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Sorry about the edit but I did it because its not a Ford motor its a continental. Its not low on oil and actually the first thing I did when I noticed a problem was to check the oil because it might have a low oil safety shut off switch. I noticed the switch while trying to trouble shoot this problem and it has 2 wires that come out of one end of a small housing. and a single wire that comes out of a small housing and these housings are connected with a small bore pipe to the lower block.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 16, 2019, 7:55 AM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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For now really doesn't matter who made the engine for the application. Many just buy blocks and heads already for altering from just a few it was engineered again to run on LNG or a gas to lack monoxide isn't at play now.
It's sparking a plug on time is done by key or switch maybe on this sends power starter AND coil at the same time and then just coil when you let go which if you do has to run on lower voltage for the points is thru a resistor to do that. We need key to there to show power when it should be there or not then WHY.
So far we (working with you sport) haven't met on where we are losing it. No spark (fire you called it) suggests you know plugs don't jump a spark - right or didn't?
Now with new stuff if that didn't go right that's in question was my 1st response that just maybe an intermittent problem is now included for not knowing what was wrong to begin with as this doesn't seem going by YOU it was just routine "tune-up" time and it didn't run after? That's how I'm lost.
Start over a whole thread if you wish.
Key power or a button or what this uses should have full time power to trigger starter motor and spark then keep power to a coil. Let's find that which is why I said just a test light till it's out of control - OK?
PS: I think under $5 bucks at even Walmarts/other places or close, just FYI
Tom
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Ole School
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Feb 27, 2019, 7:49 PM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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Just thought I would check back in and thank for the help again and let yall know what the problems turned out to be. The wires of the condenser and coil wire were shorted out. After I got fire back to the plugs it still would not start. I sprayed some carb. cleaner in the air intake and got it to start and run shortly but it would not stay running but a second or two. Luck have it, one of my customers ace mechanics came to pick up a welding job I finished for them and he took a peek at it. He determined that initially I had a bad coil and I fixed that problem when I replaced the coil but when I changed the points the wire connectors were connected on the wrong side of the insulator. The reason it did not want to start was because it was kind of cold that morning. He said the rubber diaphragm in the carburetor is very old and is getting hard and loosing its flex especially in colder weather and its getting worse as time goes by. He said until I replace the diaphragm I can use a light bulb or electric heater to warm up the carburetor diaphragm and it should crank right up. So far he is correct
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 27, 2019, 8:35 PM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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It's working and can't argue with that. Not sure what you are warming up as LPG gas shouldn't use a choke but that alone not my game. Carbs would be different totally now a fuel something not OE to much of anything but something like this.
Carry on now suggest you dig hard for some data specific to this set up for fuel of a liquified compressed gas just what it uses and a parts source for just that. The rest should just be common to a gasoline engine sparked by points is common to about all but a diesel for internal combustion engines for decades older and newer than this too. Don't beat yourself up over it unless you somehow wanted to do a lot of the same and often.
Good luck hope whatever this "diaphragm" thing is you can find or maybe fix with new rubber or unit?
Tom
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Ole School
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Feb 28, 2019, 4:40 PM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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The old rubber diaphragm is stiff especially when it is cold and will not flex properly. When heated it has more flexibility. This a propane gas type carburetor
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 1, 2019, 2:58 AM
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Re: 1970 Ford cranks but wont start
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OK: I understand use of propane for a fuel. We've changed the problem from a spark problem to fuel delivery problem not sure which one was first or both an issue just that now it's running now so original problems were found by someone in person will always be the better way for now vs assorted misunderstandings on the web pics, videos or live views.
If this machine is up to you to repair or maintain you have to say so.
Fuels are an obvious danger about all I can think of.
Anyway rubber is a generic term now for a flexible item you called a diaphragm now that is just a widespread term for a way to move or control something.
The best of products are probably now for a rubber like item if this is 1970 parts the best product I know of was a Silcone which is a brand name by DuPont had a guess of life expectancy of 30-40 years which is long past now! Yikes.
In short this handling of a combustible fuel by pressure is what propane is. It's already a vapor without pressure so we can't be discussing a choke on a carb it's another control for air/fuel delivery.
All the rubber (so we are calling it) products should be gone by now is my only point. A tire that old, fuel lines, vacuum lines, wiper blades anything that seals anything was in question already long ago.
This if used indoors should be gone thru periodically. That's all now - it's now fuel handling should be taken seriously as a danger and should be handled by qualified professional just for that.
All done. It's not my specialty area for this application of use,
T
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