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don't want to fry a control module


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TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 10:15 AM

Post #1 of 18 (322 views)
don't want to fry a control module Sign In

trying to pump old covid gas out of the tank of the 2012 Volvo S60 T5 from the fuel rail schrader valve using the fuel pump.

there are 5 or so conductors going to the fuel pump and fuel pump control module, most through the Central Electronic Module. the fuel pump and control module are listed under fuse 13.



the fused one goes through pin 76 of the c2 connector:



the wiring diagrams say that this fused connection goes to connection "4" of the fuel pump. looking at pictures of the fuel pump from the manufacturer, if i had to guess at how the pins were numbered i'd say it is left to right and that pin 4 is the +P connection, and that P stand for power and + means +12v, but that's all just a guess.




if i run +12v to this pin 76 to try to actuate the fuel pump, am I gonna fry something?


(This post was edited by TheGrinder(ofgears) on Jul 25, 2021, 10:23 AM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 25, 2021, 10:24 AM

Post #2 of 18 (312 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

You're lacking the corresponding list that identifies the components those numbers represent.



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TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 10:29 AM

Post #3 of 18 (308 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In






Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 25, 2021, 10:43 AM

Post #4 of 18 (300 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

Your car has a variable pressure pump operated by a module that uses Pulse Width Modulation. The only way to power this is by using a professional, bidirectional scan tool that can turn it on for testing.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 10:44 AM

Post #5 of 18 (298 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

and if we chase that 504 connection back it goes all the way to the ECM (although it says for 4 and 6 cylinder and this is a 5, but maybe that's a clerical error):






(This post was edited by TheGrinder(ofgears) on Jul 25, 2021, 10:44 AM)


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 25, 2021, 10:47 AM

Post #6 of 18 (291 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

The CEM only feeds the Fuel Pump Control module which actually turns the fuel pump on and varies the pressure through PWM.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 10:57 AM

Post #7 of 18 (287 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

hmm. well, if PWM is basically saying that the longer the pulse, the more vigorous the pump should run, than shouldn't a continuous +12v to the PWM input just tell it to run full power?


Tom Greenleaf
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Jul 25, 2021, 10:58 AM

Post #8 of 18 (285 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

How old and how much fuel is in this? Does it stink at the gas cap?
If it's really ancient "gasoline" with ethanol it would lose it IMO you might try getting out as much as you can thru filler neck first. I'd worry about letting the pump run dry more it could ruin it.
There are products to help if not so bad like SeaFoam by brand I suggest NOT using too much of the stuff as it probably says on container.


It's strong and if ethanol is known in that fuel look for products that will help cancel it.
More questions - Does it run now or are you afraid to try?
If you are that worried I'd sooner take tank out it won't get the last gallon or two by itself in most tanks it picks up off the bottom some in almost everything.


AYOR with your attempt to let this pump out its own of wrecking fuel pump,


T



Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Hammer Time profile image

Jul 25, 2021, 11:03 AM

Post #9 of 18 (281 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

I don't recommend trying to power the pump directly. It most likely would involve cutting wires and then figuring out the polarity. You definitely don't want to apply power while it's still plugged into the driver module.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.



TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 11:09 AM

Post #10 of 18 (277 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In


In Reply To
How old and how much fuel is in this? Does it stink at the gas cap?


the gas is probably 9 months old, but there is a hole in the gas tank from when it was moved with a fork lift (the police recovered it from a theft last summer and my insurance company put it on the copart lot while we were working on the settlement agreement). so it is way oxidized. about 4 gallons. i'll have to smell it when i look at it later.



In Reply To
If it's really ancient "gasoline" with ethanol it would lose it IMO you might try getting out as much as you can thru filler neck first.


ethanol is a problem? i'd think that stuff would just evaporate away. no?



In Reply To
There are products to help if not so bad like SeaFoam by brand I suggest NOT using too much of the stuff as it probably says on container.


i do have a little supertech fuel injector cleaner and a little bottle of supertech fuel treatment/stabilizer.



In Reply To
It's strong and if ethanol is known in that fuel look for products that will help cancel it.

If you are that worried I'd sooner take tank out it won't get the last gallon or two by itself in most tanks it picks up off the bottom some in almost everything.


the shape of the gas tank is such that it straddles the tunnel that is there for AWD version of the vehicle and so there are two separate bottoms that the fuel pump picks up from. pain in the bum bum to remove gas. the FSM says siphon out the gas cap and also pull the filler neck connection off of the tank and siphon from there, too. presumably by trying to feed the siphon hose over the drive shaft tunnel, but it is a very terse manual because they don't want to have to keep translating from swedish to english. seems dangerous. and i have really not had luck trying to get gas out through the fill port.



In Reply To
More questions - Does it run now or are you afraid to try?


afraid to try. but i gotta move it by tomorrow or it gets towed.


(This post was edited by TheGrinder(ofgears) on Jul 25, 2021, 11:46 AM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Jul 25, 2021, 11:58 AM

Post #11 of 18 (246 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

Hard to follow seams you have a new tank is good. IDK how long fuel can last if it was pure (never is) doesn't expire. The additives do are perhaps 200 different formulas so who knows except you have that ethanol will separate and can absorb moisture out of the air on top of what little fuel is in it.
That air is expanding, sent thru a passive device so it doesn't go to atmosphere then when it cools off with normal temp swings, day, night and seasonal changes if 9 months old.
I'd take fuel neck out as you said if doable in place should get you full access to what's left in it.
Look for "equipment" fuel if sold where you are is meant to be without the ethanol is fine if used up for vehicles this new the materials of fuel systems do tolerate it.
It's not good for certain rubber or plastic items all thru the system of MUCH older than this.


I just this week took apart an old/new chainsaw used once and it was destroyed inside a sealed fuel tank the tiny fuel lines were like cooked pasta I was trying to toss then all was impossible a low end brand of saw can still buy one new for $100 or so wasn't worth too much fussing with.


I'm in MA they don't sell equipment fuel but do in NH isn't far for me I don't use enough to be worth it sold in can's name brand "Tru-Fuel" or other brands just for high octane (not needed) and lack of additives. States it's stable to 2 years AFTER opening qt. cans about $5 bucks unless you buy a lot of it.
That's the last fuel I put in a lot of power equipment for off seasons so far so good - stuff isn't real new anymore but fine.
Just see what it takes to get that fuel neck out get as much out as you can. Put some in a glass jar so you can see anything wrong if wrong at all.
I hear you "afraid" to just start the thing up and burn off most of what's there but don't run out.
The odor thing is additives you don't know what was used that might be a problem, I can't guess it's just not known now.
9 months - I'd risk it with some of that Sea-Foam stuff a few ounces not the whole container should be plenty and put in known fresher fuel and burn that out bet you'll be fine,


Tom



TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 12:00 PM

Post #12 of 18 (245 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

i think i have one of these transfer pumps lying around:



I doubt that the hose will be able to get down in the tank. it will probably get pinched by the anti theft mechanism or it won't be long enough. but i wonder if i can pump fuel out of the schrader valve. will it damage the fuel pump or the injectors to suck fuel out of the schrader valve on the fuel rail?


TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 12:11 PM

Post #13 of 18 (237 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In


In Reply To
Hard to follow seams you have a new tank is good. IDK how long fuel can last if it was pure (never is) doesn't expire. The additives do are perhaps 200 different formulas so who knows except you have that ethanol will separate and can absorb moisture out of the air on top of what little fuel is in it.
That air is expanding, sent thru a passive device so it doesn't go to atmosphere then when it cools off with normal temp swings, day, night and seasonal changes if 9 months old.


except in this car, all the vapor escapes through the hole in the tank.



In Reply To
I'd take fuel neck out as you said if doable in place should get you full access to what's left in it.
Look for "equipment" fuel if sold where you are is meant to be without the ethanol is fine if used up for vehicles this new the materials of fuel systems do tolerate it.
It's not good for certain rubber or plastic items all thru the system of MUCH older than this.


I just this week took apart an old/new chainsaw used once and it was destroyed inside a sealed fuel tank the tiny fuel lines were like cooked pasta I was trying to toss then all was impossible a low end brand of saw can still buy one new for $100 or so wasn't worth too much fussing with.


I'm in MA they don't sell equipment fuel but do in NH isn't far for me I don't use enough to be worth it sold in can's name brand "Tru-Fuel" or other brands just for high octane (not needed) and lack of additives. States it's stable to 2 years AFTER opening qt. cans about $5 bucks unless you buy a lot of it.
That's the last fuel I put in a lot of power equipment for off seasons so far so good - stuff isn't real new anymore but fine.
Just see what it takes to get that fuel neck out get as much out as you can. Put some in a glass jar so you can see anything wrong if wrong at all.
I hear you "afraid" to just start the thing up and burn off most of what's there but don't run out.
The odor thing is additives you don't know what was used that might be a problem, I can't guess it's just not known now.
9 months - I'd risk it with some of that Sea-Foam stuff a few ounces not the whole container should be plenty and put in known fresher fuel and burn that out bet you'll be fine,


the car is fairly old, but the engine is brand spanking new from the manufacturer due to a good faith past warranty replacement. what's the worst that could happen? clogged injectors? or something much worse?


(This post was edited by TheGrinder(ofgears) on Jul 25, 2021, 12:12 PM)


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Jul 25, 2021, 12:42 PM

Post #14 of 18 (225 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

Quote you, ">
except in this car, all the vapor escapes through the hole in the tank.<"


That solves it if you are getting a new tank dump that fuel as it comes crashing down - use all caution of course. Have a plan for the fuel how and where to dispose of it.


Do NOT get gas on asphalt it will eat a hole in it you need to know a spot or place to do this will be a mess if concrete or unsafe hoisting if not on real solid wood and LEVEL area. Use plywood (larger than the jack stands even double up on them - just don't allow it to fall on you.


I think you would save the in-tank pump for new tank - right?


The picture you posted of those hand pumps do work make sure those are wet or they'll fail quickly should say that on package. Sold here cheap enough.


A thought if this hole in tank is large enough will the hose get inside thru that? Careful if you try to make hole larger NO SPARKS fuel vapor NOT the liquid can seriously explode!


Once out most of any remaining fuel in lines should be insignificant has to be trashed if open to air like you said now.


Do you have the right place and ways to not kill yourself messing with this? If not, send this job out TELL ANY TOWING PERSON IT HAS A HOLE and some fuel in it. Should have a helper or assistant with fire extinguishers at the ready - of course!


Good luck there's danger in this why not get a quote say what the scene is shops are up to or not so ASK one that will do this avoid the whole mess and danger of it,


Tom



TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 1:06 PM

Post #15 of 18 (218 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

yes, the tank needs to be replaced, but right now i need to move it before tomorrow so it doesn't get towed away.


Quote
Once out most of any remaining fuel in lines should be insignificant has to be trashed if open to air like you said now


are you saying the lines need to be replaced?


Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
Tom Greenleaf profile image

Jul 25, 2021, 3:26 PM

Post #16 of 18 (199 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

Not sure on how much fuel will hold up in lines. Guess I'd loosen where it will and probably try to blow them out if they don't just drip.

If you now only have a day before it's towed where it is most of cars made for serious travel (new) will have somewhat obvious tow hook things or know where to put a hook/strap and if on your premises with competent help move it yourself.

DON'T FORGET IT WON'T STOP WELL IF YOU CAN LOOK AT THE ROTORS SOME RIGHT THRU THE WHEELS IS A CLUE.

That rust depending how harsh isn't going to grab very well till it's used and brakes purposely dragged IDK how much room you have.
You really can't use public roads and a tow strap anywhere I know of and be legal.

IF you have a motor club and or insurance covered for towing and sure you can take this on use it. Most will only tow once for same issue so check on that.

Do you have time to get a quote from a shop, also ask if you can buy parts/tank or used a chance they get removed from salvaged cars here and wheels all off the yards do or don't let you go look but should know what whole good tanks would be an exact fit.

I think fuel neck may require a new "donut" where it goes into tank I wouldn't know off hand on this you should see it.

I could go on forever it's bugging me as I know how dangerous gas tanks are far more dangerous empty but not totally.

If time today spray some PB on how tank it held, straps or how it's done. Don't forget it was thought out to ground them to prevent sparks look for that or if bolted to body metal it is but the filler neck isn't, something was done to put back.

Again, good luck with what you decide to do just use you head and don't get the thing to kill you over paying for this job may not take much time labor wise IDK cost of tank and expect fuel pump to work, whole with sender don't wreck that it's probably nasty expensive on this,


Tom


TheGrinder(ofgears)
User

Jul 25, 2021, 3:36 PM

Post #17 of 18 (193 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

do you think it would harm the pump or injectors or anything else to pump the fuel out of the fuel rail Schrader valve with the transfer pump?


Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky / Moderator
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Jul 25, 2021, 3:56 PM

Post #18 of 18 (189 views)
Re: don't want to fry a control module Sign In

You're not going to be able to pump fuel from the shraeder. It has to be pulled through the fuel pump and that's not easy.



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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.







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