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baileymk3golf
User
Nov 21, 2014, 8:08 AM
Post #1 of 18
(1803 views)
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emissions failure on C02
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Hey!
I recently got my beloved VW Mk3 Golf 1.4L 1996 (N) MOT'd, I was considering scrapping it and buying something else but we've got a lot of history togetherso wanted to keep her going.
Before The MOT I got 2 new tyres, tracking sorted and a whole new exhaust system because the Cat had gone (except manifold) fitted at Wilko Direct. (The cost of the down pipe and cat was only £100 including fitting, I've been told this is very cheap for a CAT, even for a non type approved one and may be the problem?)
I though she would pass easy now, it did on everything except the emissions!
It was passing the HC but failing the C02 giving reading of around 0.600% out of 0.200% and only just failing on the lambda.
Long story short, I've fitted a new lambda sensor, new air filter, new spark plugs, Forte fuel additive thrashed the car about for an hour to clear out the engine and warm her up and still failing on C02 (but only just passing the lambda now, still passing HC)
I went back to Wilko and they checked the exhaust for leaks and took the car to a garage that they use for another emissions test. Same problem again.
They ordered in a new CAT and fitted it incase the old one was faulty, still failing on C02!!!
I've been to a couple of independent garages and they've basically said that I should scrap it, although it's not worth any money I love the car and seems such a shame to scrap her when it runs absolutely fine and passed everything but the C02 emissions...
N.B. the exhaust is emitting a fair amount of white smoke but not at start up, only when the car has been running for a while and warmed up. I've got no loss of oil, no loss of coolant water and no gammy mayonnaise on either caps. I've cleaned the throttle body and the engine seems to be running fine...
It's done 107k miles so is getting on but was hoping for at least another year on the road...
Any help would be great!!! Thanks
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 21, 2014, 9:02 AM
Post #2 of 18
(1795 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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OK. I'll try some but know this site is mostly tended to by US and Canadian model vehicles so will lack exact info for this car.
First off are you really talking about and spelled out "CARBON DIOXIDE" too high or "CARBON MONOXIDE" too high? So far that is not counted for an emissions failure. The first is found in the air you exhale while breathing and naturally made by burning about anything I know of. Get's political about the real impact of it if any.
What I see in all you wrote is that you visibly see white smoke or something out the tailpipe when warmed up. That mostly suggests a water something and doesn't take too much to see it so might not notice a fluid level drop quickly.
High bet that is the source problem. Where I am in MA/USA any fuel burning vehicle that has visible anything out the tail pipe would be rejected no matter what is was - harmful something or not.
I suspect you are burning some engine coolant if seeing true white smoke and not being fooled by something else.
If you really meant you failed by only CO2 (a non toxic gas as said) I do NOT know what emission control on the vehicle would alter that one. If you meant CO (the toxic poisonous gas) that's controllable but know true CO gas is not visible and doesn't have an odor by itself.
You may really want to find a specialty shop for your issue to pass MOT testing but know why for sure and costs to make it pass so you can make a decision.
For now I suspect a head gasket failure that isn't wildly bad just yet for the smoke seen. In person testing by a tech should prove or disprove that. High bet with that fixed (if not nasty expensive) this would pass your MOT test,
T
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baileymk3golf
User
Nov 21, 2014, 10:32 AM
Post #3 of 18
(1791 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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Hey!
Thanks for the reply, sorry, yeah I meant Carbon monoxide (CO)
I was suspecting the head gasket, I'll have a good look for any gunk in my expansion bottle.
If so I might try some of that head gasket liquid sealant, have you ever used that before?
Thanks for the help.
Joe
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 21, 2014, 10:51 AM
Post #4 of 18
(1786 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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I suspected that error. High "monoxide" is from a combo of incomplete combustion and high combustion temps usually and note 'usually.'
I can't know what the whole process of the MOT test is or how long they run your car to test what or the rules of the test. Will they test again for no charge or do you start all over with those tests?
If your reading that was too high was in "Parts Per Million" it could test fine by just trying again but doesn't explain the smoke. That should be your first concern. You said you like this car but know it's time may be limited suggests to me that you are NOT interested in some wildly expensive repairs so the job now in my opinion is find out what is causing that dang smoke and how much it will take to solve that first. CO (monoxide) could be relatively easy to lower with a smaller repair or totally solved when that dang smoke problem is known.
Many cars you could be burning some coolant/antifreeze in the radiator and engine but a recovery bottle may show fine. You need to know both are fine and that it holds pressure by testing. Some radiators do not have a pressure cap on them but rather on the recovery tank you can see and if that can't pass coolant back and forth to engine because of a leak the real level is possibly low in the engine. You'll know by testing, looking, or heater quits working, overheating eventually if not already some,
T
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baileymk3golf
User
Nov 21, 2014, 11:06 AM
Post #5 of 18
(1781 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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Ok,
I've just plugged a little diagnostics VAG reader that I got through the post today and it's coming up with an O2 sensor low voltage reading...
Any ideas what that could entail? shouldn't be the lambda because it's a new one!
It is in parts per million yeah, you get 10 days to fix the faults which fail your car for an MOT and you only pay a small amount for a re-test instead of the full amount. I've had about 10 emissions tests done in total over around 3 weeks and still reading the same.
Hopefully this fault will point to something
Thanks!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 21, 2014, 11:31 AM
Post #6 of 18
(1778 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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OK - you have a code for an O2 SENSOR fault. Probably two of them in your car one before a catalytic converter and one after if your code reader device tells you which.
Now know that it doesn't mean the sensor is bad but rather something with that (circuit) isn't right. Could be how it's plugged in or wires to it not only just a sensor if you get what I mean.
I'm not familiar with what your mean by "lambda" in context sounds like you mean some master computer control? Otherwise I think that word is just Greek for the letter "L" isn't it?
So back to that sensor. If one before converter it can cause improper fuel delivery which would throw emissions off and probably not run well either.
If this is over fueling it's possible that the smoke is from that and too much fuel is usually a black sooty smoke with odors too not plain white but could be.
So, if that sensor is NOT operating properly check connections first at the plug to it and wires along the way. There are ways to test a sensor itself that probably are not too easy for you to get info, specifications or tools for. It would just be gambling on that part to replace it at the risk that it is NOT the problem - your call on that based on costs and if you can do it etc.
This could just be slightly out of spec and still run OK to you and be worth fixing if just that and not more. It could take a good drive after fixing anything to see if it changes and that the code goes away. I wouldn't reset the code if you plan on another MOT test anytime soon as it may tell you "incomplete data" or something and fail on that alone?
I'm with you sport (mate) whatever you say with little ammo for this fight for you but think you can get thru this one now,
T
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baileymk3golf
User
Nov 21, 2014, 12:19 PM
Post #7 of 18
(1773 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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Thanks mate,
Really appreciate it.
I've only one O2 sensor which is before the CAT. We call the O2 sensors Lambda sensors here for some reason...
I reset the code earlier and it still ran the same, I dis connected my battery for about an hour which must have reset the computer and the fault has come back.
I'll check the connections and disconnect the battery again to see if it comes back. I've still got the old Lmabda (or O2 sensor) which might give me a different reading...
At least there is somewhere to go from now! 
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 21, 2014, 2:06 PM
Post #8 of 18
(1763 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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The basic definition of CO is "burned fuel" as opposed to HC (Hydrocarbons) which is unburned fuel. I wouldn't be blaming a head gasket here. I'd be looking for something that would cause the engine to run richer, while still burning the fuel.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 21, 2014, 5:38 PM
Post #9 of 18
(1754 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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I'm curious as to why they would go replacing the converter when there is an O2 low voltage code lurking? Wouldn't you what to find out and fix the problem that is generating the code first before condemning the cat? Then you have white smoke coming out the exhaust which means the engine is burning something it shouldn't which contaminates the converter. I think the cart is being put before the horse.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 21, 2014, 5:38 PM)
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baileymk3golf
User
Nov 22, 2014, 1:21 AM
Post #10 of 18
(1746 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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The CAT was broken before I got the car MOT'd, was rattling like mad. When I got the cat put in I could hear the middle and back mufflers were blowing too so replaced them also.
I changed the O2 sensor once the car had failed the MOT (which was about 6 weeks ago) and didn't find the O2 sensor code until yesterday.
Thanks
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 22, 2014, 7:56 AM
Post #11 of 18
(1737 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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The low voltage code and the white smoke needs to be trouble shot. I would be concerned about the white smoke first cause either it is burning coolant or you have raw fuel getting into the exhaust from a dead cylinder with low compression, stuck open injector, or no ignition.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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baileymk3golf
User
Nov 29, 2014, 5:56 AM
Post #12 of 18
(1697 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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I done a compression test today and the readings are -
Cylinder 1 Cylinder 2 Cylinder 3 Cylinder 4
Dry - 60psi 75psi 70psi 70psi
Wet - 75psi 85psi 75psi 76psi
Any thoughts on these readings?
They don't look too bad to me but cylinder 1 does look a tad low and cylinder 2 a tad high.
Was kinda hoping it was going to give me a sure reading on a head gasket but still puzzled! 
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 29, 2014, 6:19 AM
Post #13 of 18
(1694 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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Probably me - sorry. If you really meant "Pounds Per [sq.] Inch" or PSI either your testing failed or this engine wouldn't run at those low pressures.
No conversion chart handy for Kpa? (kilo-pounds) if so.
Either way cyl #1 is off with dry wet testing more than acceptable. Suggests cylinder/ring wear to me. A maybe if a gasket could do that so far.
IDK yet as it shouldn't run at that as said. If somehow accurate and it does valve timing is in question along with general engine condition that you didn't want to hear so let's hope there's some mistake in those readings,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 29, 2014, 6:24 AM
Post #14 of 18
(1686 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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There is your problem. You can't sustain complete combustion with those readings. We don't have that engine available here but I checked the specs on the engine our Golf has and they are around 160 with a minimum of 100.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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baileymk3golf
User
Nov 29, 2014, 6:30 AM
Post #15 of 18
(1684 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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The Haynes manual says it should be around 7bar which is just over 100psi. So I've got a low reading in all cylinders.
at around 4 - 5 bar...
I disconnected the lead to the rotor and spark leads, took out all the plugs, took the fuel pump fuse out and pressed the accelerator pedal all the way in while i turned it over with the key. All cylinders shot up to pressure nicely and I stopped turning the engine when they levelled out at around 4 or 5 turns...
Still, a low reading but somewhat similar...
Pretty sure I done everything by the book on this one...
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 29, 2014, 7:15 AM
Post #16 of 18
(1677 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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7 bar is minimum. Normal is 9 to 12 bar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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baileymk3golf
User
Dec 11, 2014, 1:38 PM
Post #17 of 18
(1629 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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Just so you guys know,
I replaced the head gasket and valve stem seals, put it all back together and I was buzzing on how well it went, started it up and now runs worse than before!!! I've bought a Mk4 Golf now so the old gal is off to the scrappers soon.
Thanks for the help everyone!
Joe
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Dec 11, 2014, 3:01 PM
Post #18 of 18
(1627 views)
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Re: emissions failure on C02
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Appreciate you posting at least what you tried that failed and wish you good luck with the next vehicle as the other is gone I take it by now.
Will close up thread to keep spammers out as essentially solved by giving up on the old vehicle. If wanted YOU can ask any moderator to re-open this thread or better start another for the other vehicle if needed,
T
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