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06 grand prix won't start
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ccundy
Novice
May 22, 2013, 4:01 PM
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06 grand prix won't start
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info: 2006 grand prix 3.8l 6 cyl
Worked fine two days ago. Today will not start. turns over, all electric good, just no spark.
Error codes:
p020X x being 1-6 -> injector circuit open cylinder X
p0030 ho2s heater control circuit (bank 1, sensor 1)
p0036 ho2s heater control circuit (bank 1, sensor 2)
p0443 evaporative emission system purge control valve circuit
Any ideas where to start?
Thanks Christopher
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nickwarner
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May 22, 2013, 4:10 PM
Post #2 of 18
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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You need to check for injector pulse with a noid light. You already know you have no spark, now we need to see if this is just a spark issue or a crank sensor issue.
Thanks for being prepared and posting codes in your first post.
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Discretesignals
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May 22, 2013, 4:31 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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Unplug one of the injector connectors. Take a 12 volt test lamp or volt meter and check for power in the connector on the pink wire with the ignition on.
Don't shove the probe of the test lamp or test lead down into the connector terminal. Just touch it to see if you get battery voltage.
If you don't get battery voltage, start by checking the fuel injectors 20 amp fuse in the under hood fuse block. Check for power on the fuse itself with the ignition on. If there is no power at the fuse, you'll have to make checks at the powertrain relay to find where to go.
Let us know what you find out.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on May 22, 2013, 4:38 PM)
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ccundy
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May 31, 2013, 11:11 AM
Post #4 of 18
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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Figured that it may be the crank or cam position sensor but they are both beyond my ability. Hoped it was the ignition control module. After replacing it didn't change anything. I am getting it towed to the shop now.
Thanks again for the help.
Christopher
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Discretesignals
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May 31, 2013, 11:43 AM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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Guess you just skipped over my post. I might as well have been typing to myself.
ICM, CKP, or CMP isn't going to cause injector circuit codes. The injector circuit codes are related to the O2 sensor heater and purge valve codes because they all get power through the powertrain relay. Checking the injector voltage would have probably lead you down the right path to a fix.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on May 31, 2013, 11:45 AM)
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ccundy
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Jun 29, 2013, 1:36 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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After the mechanic had it for three weeks it is still the same. He replaced the computer (reprogrammed for key), Load center (fuse box under hood), oil pressure sensor (new code error that randomly comes back), crank sensor, cam sensor. thankfully he has a "if I can't fix it, I wont charge you" policy. However, we are still where we were.
Checked voltage to pink wire at each injector. Results is 4 volts at each.
Any more ideas?
Same Codes as before
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 29, 2013, 4:44 PM
Post #7 of 18
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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What is the voltage at the EVAP purge valve pink wire?
Are you checking the voltage with the connectors unplugged or checking by back probing the circuit, so it is loaded?
4 volts open circuit at the injectors isn't going to cut it. You have resistance somewhere or the battery is dead.
I would go to the fuse box under the hood and remove the P train relay. Then apply fused power to pin 87 in the cavity and see what voltage you get at your injectors.
If you get battery voltage to your injectors doing that check for battery voltage at terminal 30 in the P train relay cavity. If you see battery voltage there, replace the P train relay.
If you don't have battery voltage to the injectors after applying fused power to pin 87, you have resistance somewhere in the wiring.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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ccundy
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Jun 29, 2013, 7:03 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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What is the voltage at the EVAP purge valve pink wire?
Voltage at the pink wire of the EVAP is aprox .3 volts
Are you checking the voltage with the connectors unplugged or checking by back probing the circuit, so it is loaded?
I checked the first time with the plugs removed from the injectors. I rechecked with the plugs reinstalled on the injectors and got the same result.
4 volts open circuit at the injectors isn't going to cut it. You have resistance somewhere or the battery is dead.
Battery is not dead. The battery is producing 12.5 volts.
I would go to the fuse box under the hood and remove the P train relay. Then apply fused power to pin 87 in the cavity and see what voltage you get at your injectors.
Removed and replaced the ignition relay and PowerTrain relay. Voltage at the two right pins (plug holes) is 12.5 volts.
If you get battery voltage to your injectors doing that check for battery voltage at terminal 30 in the P train relay cavity. If you see battery voltage there, replace the P train relay.
Not sure how to apply 'fused voltage' from the relay to the injectors but 12.5 volts at relay and new relay installed.
If you don't have battery voltage to the injectors after applying fused power to pin 87, you have resistance somewhere in the wiring.
Started removing wire protectors from the bundle under the load center and tracing them to the injectors. injector wires appear to go to the computer. not sure but still looking.
PS. this wire bundle is a pain. There are more wires than I thought a car would need. Tracing them will take some time.
I know that this isn't fixed yet but thanks for the help. This damn car has been driving me nuts.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 29, 2013, 7:40 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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What you could try to see if you have a voltage drop is to connect a small bulb such as a 1157 to one of of the injector connectors at the pink wire terminal. Then apply fused 12 volt to the relay cavity pin 87. This will put a load on the circuit and the bulb should illuminate. With the circuit loaded you can check the voltage drop in the wiring. If it is more that .3 volts, you know you have a wiring issue.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jun 29, 2013, 7:46 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 30, 2013, 1:29 AM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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Christopher - all following:
Quote ">>Battery is not dead. The battery is producing 12.5 volts. <<"
Just a question as you have the best on this. When are you seeing 12.5 volts from this battery? Sorry if I missed it but from the get go this will crank and not start and voltages are all wrong.
This is throwing all kinds of codes, fooling everyone and I just wonder what the voltage is when this is cranking? Starter is the largest load and that 12.5V might just drop so low it's throwing everything off.
Odd that it would crank but perhaps the amps are incapable to stay up. Kinda needs to stay above 9-9.5V while starter is crankiing and it might not? Actually would like it to stay above 10V. Assorted crazy things happen sometimes when they can't. Just a late night thought on what might be a common denomitor.
Most that drop out voltage while cranking will first crank too slow then make solenoid flutter but not all. Just curious.
Done with this biz but a vehicle did this crap to me, jumper box failed so did the dirty with a direct jump to running vehicle (not generally recommended) and after a few minutes dang thing started right up!
((That problem began with a stone dead battery from reading lamps being left on))
T
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ccundy
Novice
Jun 30, 2013, 12:27 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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We again tested the voltage at the injector (4.1). We turned off the ignition and applied 12.3 volts to the 30 pin. we got 12.3 at injector. installed a test light at injector it lit (my test light is 6-12 volt and the 4 volts would not light it). Tested voltage at light and got 12.2 (loss of .1). wondered about the 12.3 becoming 4.1. Inserted the relay and discovered that pin 30 of the relay only allows 4.1. tested old, new and a couple of relays that were 'extra'. Same results each time, relay seems to have a resistor that reduces voltage from 12 to 4 volt. No loss found.
Checked grounds and they looked good. Is there any chance it could be the timing belt/chain? Everything seems to work, but nothing works.
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ccundy
Novice
Jun 30, 2013, 12:34 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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just checked battery, 11v while cranking.
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ccundy
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Jun 30, 2013, 1:16 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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There are 4 pins on the relay. 85 to 86 are the switch. 87 to 30 is the "relayed circuit". 85 and 87 have 12.5 volts. With the relay inserted but pulled out enough to touch prongs, Pins 85, 86, and 87 have 12.5, pin 30 has 4.1 volts. That is how I figured that it has a resistor. I tried the old, new and a spare. It didn't make sense to me either but I can't explain it except that the relay is restricting the flow. I didn't think that that was right so I checked the others. I tested with ignition on, res lead to prong, black lead to negative battery terminal.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 30, 2013, 4:08 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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I'm at a loss. As DS said relays are not "resistors" to alter volts rather make the connection there. Guess you have a few to play with, tear one apart if you wish and see there are points inside when excited they make the connection.
If right at the relay could cause a voltage drop from B+ (battery pos) down to ~4V I'd think it would be hot to glowing!
Where is this relay/fuse box? Is it inside against firewall? Seems you are able to pull relay out as mentioned and get a probe in there to witness this while it's in enough it should be working - right? Multiple relays behave the same as well - that's a head scratcher??
If the "juice" is going thru but drops like that it has to be going somewhere. Things that use some current (amps) make heat someplace. Light bulbs get warm/hot to touch, electric motors get warm/hot and so on not talking about LED things.
I just mentioned location of this box because just once now like everything ages ago found a no go right at firewall block to a fuse/relay box that could be separated from underhood full of that thick yellow grease but that was a total drop out of power traced right to that not making a connection not just a drop like this. If, if, if something like that about the only thing I can think of at the moment would be water damage and subsequent short.
For the while till this gremlin is found and some take time do keep your battery charged up as too much trying, cranking to test and so on is taking some available amps out not shown by the drop test with cranking the engine as mentioned which was good BTW so rule that out OR can you see voltage at that relay that should be battery voltage drop out while cranking? Thinking out loud as this is messing me up just to read the frustration so far,
T
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Sidom
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Jun 30, 2013, 4:14 PM
Post #16 of 18
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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When you start testing relays, solenoids, switches, etc the way you are talking about, you start to see open circuit voltage and if you don't understand how it works it can get confusing.....
Sounds like something is pulling your voltage down......
This a long thread so I hope I'm not repeating advise.....1st thing to do would be to swap out the relays to see if that makes a difference....If you are still losing your voltage, disconnect all the injectors and see if that gets you your voltage & pulse back.... I've seen more than one GM with 1 shorted injector that caused a no start...
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 30, 2013, 5:27 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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Gotta be getting the pins confused.
PIN 30 is always hot from the battery
PIN 87 is only hot when the relay is latched
PIN 86 is always hot from the battery
PIN 85 goes to the PCM. The voltage on that pin drops almost to ground when the PCM grounds the circuit to latch the relay.
Edit
Ok...That is four pin relay so it can be put in two ways. If you rotate it, 87 and 85 will be the hots instead of 30 and 86.
86 will show voltage because the PCM hasn't grounded the relay. In that position pin 30 won't have any voltage. When you turn the ignition on does the relay energize?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Jun 30, 2013, 5:34 PM)
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Sidom
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Jun 30, 2013, 8:26 PM
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Re: 06 grand prix won't start
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Instead of just disconnecting 1 injector.....Why don't you disconnect the whole harness at the intake and then take your reading again down there at the relay....
If the voltage are now reading correctly......then your in the wrong area....
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