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'13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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joedotmac
Novice
Oct 8, 2020, 6:36 PM
Post #1 of 11
(863 views)
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'13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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2013 Ford F150 3.5 EB 62k miles
Started having an issue with long or extended crank for the truck to start on cold start ups. Starter engages, turns engine over at the expected rate, engine struggles to ignite for about a second and a half longer than normal, then fires off. Tried easy potential fixes, plugs, coils, battery.
After an initial start for the day, subsequent startups happen no issue if the truck sits for two to six hours. If the truck sits longer without a start, the symptom is noticeable.
Trying to determine what's normal behavior on truck fuel pressure at key on and key off. I'm seeing the high pressure side bleeds off the longer the truck sits since last start. Not sure if this is normal, circumstantial, or part of the symptom. Anyone know the correct behavior of the high pressure side fuel pressure after key off? Should it maintain pressure?
I've observed the HPFP high pressure side appears to lose rail pressure the longer it sits. Idle seems to be in the 800-900 psi range. After four hour of shutdown it was 788 psi, after six captured 356 psi, after 14 hours it was 55 psi. Not sure if this is normal behavior or part of the contributing symptom.
Anyone know of the expected good behavior from the high pressure side after key off?
Trying to get more data or isolate via troubleshooting before replacing anything.
Is there a way to jumper the fuel pump driver module (FPDM) like on the previous generation trucks to energize the in tank LFP? Oil level isn't high, oil doesn't smell of fuel.
This is a capture after off for four hours, HPFP pressure of 788 psi. Green line is RPM.
http://www.getyasome.net/images/FP788.png
This is a capture after 14 hours, HPFP pressure of 55 psi.
http://www.getyasome.net/images/FP55.png
Culprit might be: leaking injector, bad internal HPFP, bad in tank LFP, bad FPDM, any others?
Thanks for any insight.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 8, 2020, 11:45 PM
Post #2 of 11
(842 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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? 62K on this I doubt you did it any favors replacing plugs and coils not involved IMO.
Your PSI and idle speeds are posted mixed up - no prob just know it loses pressure over time a tad too fast good you checked oil for being too full or odor of fuel.
It's leaking back obviously or quite slow to leak at injectors. Also fuel is in Winter mode evaporates lots faster now varies right where you are and fuel used time/date changes - all 200 of them - really.
Since plugs were out did one or more show any different than others? That was at least a chance to really look/see what is going on there no tech just look. Put good plugs back what you got were probably worse at 62k - IMO on that. That doesn't help wires either just removing them harmed them if not done very well you'll regret doing that.
Any codes? You know it's losing pressure the engine would start right up with a prime or allow to stay in run position when this expected would also fire right up no doubt.
Job is injector leak or regulator back to tank no holding tight enough IMO just isolate which and go from there,
T
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joedotmac
Novice
Oct 9, 2020, 11:48 AM
Post #3 of 11
(817 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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? 62K on this I doubt you did it any favors replacing plugs and coils not involved IMO.
Your PSI and idle speeds are posted mixed up - no prob just know it loses pressure over time a tad too fast good you checked oil for being too full or odor of fuel.
It's leaking back obviously or quite slow to leak at injectors. Also fuel is in Winter mode evaporates lots faster now varies right where you are and fuel used time/date changes - all 200 of them - really.
Since plugs were out did one or more show any different than others? That was at least a chance to really look/see what is going on there no tech just look. Put good plugs back what you got were probably worse at 62k - IMO on that. That doesn't help wires either just removing them harmed them if not done very well you'll regret doing that.
Any codes? You know it's losing pressure the engine would start right up with a prime or allow to stay in run position when this expected would also fire right up no doubt.
Job is injector leak or regulator back to tank no holding tight enough IMO just isolate which and go from there,
T
Not knowing if there was a spark issue causing the symptom, pulling the plugs to do a visual for potential crack of the ceramic body, or damage to center or ground electrode, or gap way out of spec was performed to validate plug condition. There was nothing significant to note on plugs other than gap had increased .002 over the installed .030 spec.
Not sure what's implied about PSI and idle speeds mixed up. This capture is the raw input from the PCM data log. Reviewed the captures and they're accurate.
Removed and replace the aftermarket coils with previously known good working coils OEM coils validations any electronic issue from failing coil. Process of elimination and isolation.
There's no spark plug wires to harm, coil on plug design with the '13 3.5L EB
There's no codes.
The '13 EB fuel system has a low pressure and high pressure side. The low pressure side fuel pressure key on is 65psi. There's no electronic prime of the high pressure side as the HPFP is mechanically driven off a cam lobe, thus any priming of the HPFP only occurs when the engine is cranked over. The only convergence of the low and high pressure side happen inside the HPFP.
The quest now is determining what's is expected with normal operating engine, should the high pressure side fuel pressure be maintained after key off? If so what spec? Searching for this answer.
The '13 EB is a return-less fuel system, doesn't have a return style fuel pressure regulator. The PCM electronically controls fuel volume and pressure through the demand control valve and pressure relief valve within the HPFP.
https://www.f150ecoboost.net/...g-injectors-hpfp.jpg
Will change the oil and send off to Blackstone for oil analysis (fuel in oil %). Performed oil analysis on every oil change since new. All readings have been 2% or less. Daughters 2017 2.0 EB and previous 2012 EB was the same fuel in oil at sample. Ford's programming at cold start is aggressively rich.
Anyone know the expected behavior of the high pressure side fuel pressure after key off?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 9, 2020, 1:40 PM
Post #4 of 11
(811 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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OK - Another will be by was just lost with the line YOU said - Quote >" After four hour of shutdown it was 788 psi, after six captured 356 psi, after 14 hours it was 55 psi.<" ??
I get it.
I don't get the no codes if/when it's not running properly (this isn't proper over time as said) by 2013s there' something for it to say. I do suggest getting oil examined if that has fuel in it there's a problem - if known begs is it a recall item or what?
General on changing things out (low mile stuff, most anything) you are stressing connections just spend hours messing with a thing, same miles by chance isn't a thing I've HAD to touch that didn't act up and I'm the first I'm sure.
Plugs sound fine within accuracy of measuring them IMO the benefit is not stuck otherwise IDK for some years messing with them new stuff isn't what went in new even at dealers stated, marked OE parts?
So for now agree the "long crank'' has to go there' isn't much that isn't fully designed for instant start up without extremes - this isn't. Catch it could save a starter down the road so don't blame you for hunting this down,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 9, 2020, 2:32 PM
Post #5 of 11
(803 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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No, there is no way to jumper the FPDM unless you have a bidirectional, professional scan tool. The you could operate the pump from the scanner and adjust the pulse percentage. It's a pulse width modulated circuit for varying fuel pressure.
I wouldn't worry too much about the high pressure side right now. What you need to look hard at is the tank pump pressure. What happens to the pressure when the key is turned off and how fast does it come up when the key is first turned on. That's the important data.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Oct 9, 2020, 2:34 PM)
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joedotmac
Novice
Oct 9, 2020, 5:50 PM
Post #6 of 11
(791 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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That's helpful!
I'll get a pressure gauge installed on the low pressure side before the HPFP and report back with the key on pressure vales and responsiveness.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 9, 2020, 5:53 PM
Post #7 of 11
(787 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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There should be a pressure sensor in the fuel rail that can be read on the scanner but that won't help you with the key off.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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joedotmac
Novice
Oct 9, 2020, 6:23 PM
Post #8 of 11
(781 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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The pressure sensor on the rail will be on the high pressure side correct? I can log and or view that one at key on, starter engaging, and at run. I logged a couple key on start sequences above at different HPFP starting pressures.
What's interesting, the normal no issue start had the high pressure side at key on before engaging the starter at 788psi, took 2 seconds to ignite. The cold struggle to start had a high side fuel pressure starting point of 55psi and took right at 4 seconds to ignite. I'm guessing it takes time and cycles on the HPFP to make up the deficiet from 55psi to 800 psi+ for it to ignite versus starting at 788 psi.
I've got another question out to an EB group to see if someone can report they're HPFP psi after an extended key off 8+ hours.
Also have a fuel pressure gauge arriving on Sunday so I validate the in tank low pressure pump operation, key on.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 9, 2020, 6:40 PM
Post #9 of 11
(771 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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After checking on some things on this system, the fuel rail is high pressure and the pressures you are reading appear to be low. The high side pressure should vary between 220 and 2,150 psi.
Confirm that the supply pump is working properly first.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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joedotmac
Novice
Oct 22, 2020, 1:26 PM
Post #10 of 11
(705 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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Validated the low pressure pump in the tank is providing 65psi at key on consistently. Drove and logged the range of operation of the HPFP. Observed roughly 198-214 psi at idle and normal driving acceleration up to 3300 RPM topped at 1799 psi.
I was able to identify the source of the problem. The issue was a tune update. Same tuner used for six years. For wherever reason the latest revision I was provided had a desired starting psi of 950. Looking at previous tunes they were commanding 1250 psi. The lower commanded pressure didn't demand the rate of increase for every cycle of the HPFP pump for every rotation of the cam lobe, thus wasn't providing what the engine needed fuel to ignite and the delayed struggled start was induced. Now with a fixed tune, three cycles of the HPFP pump its able to provide 1250 psi in .75 seconds of engine turnover thus solving the issue.
Thanks for the information share and contribution.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 22, 2020, 2:14 PM
Post #11 of 11
(695 views)
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Re: '13 F150 EB Extended Long Crank to Start
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Sounds good.
Closed now as solved.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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