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1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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bryan_kilco
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Feb 26, 2008, 2:28 PM
Post #51 of 78
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Re: CAR PROBLEM SOLVED!
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I really hope this isnt one of those cases where I'll never figure out the problem. So far, a total nightmare. My last car got blown up by some punk-kid that threw some sort of explosive thru my window.....then I buy this car for $700, test drive it...everything works and is sound for about 2 months, then everything Sh!ts on me. Maybe I will just let this thread die in it's rightfull manner....
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Double J
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Feb 26, 2008, 2:44 PM
Post #52 of 78
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Re: CAR PROBLEM SOLVED!
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Can't let it die now man...We're all watching and waiting...praying for you...
I agree with Tom G....get fresh blood involved and say nothing about whats been done...
Reminds me of atime when I was at Chevy...we had a brand new in stock Cavalier that wouldn't start...
They gave it to one of the apprentice techs to repair because the service manager we had at the time wanted to get things done at a lower cost of sale...understandable...but when these guys couldn't handle it then we had to bail him out..anyway...this guy worked on this car for I swear to you 2 months..he had the entire dash out, probed and damaged every connector,replaced damn near every part,new Pcm, igniton switch,crank sensor,etc....cut and checked wiring,damaged harnesses...etc...it became a nightmare...well,the owner finally got involved because they pay the juice on this car to keep it on the lot....they gave it to another supposedly skilled guy and told the last guy to work with him on it....well,they compared notes as to what was done...what do you know,he couldn't fix it either...
Finally they gave it to one of the Journeymen, who,and I kid you not,had it diagnosed and running in less than 20 minutes.....of course it took the next 3 days to repair all the damaged connectors,wiring and put the car back to sellable condition....
IT had a bad camshaft position sensor...the time warranty paid to diagnose and repair,like .6 R & R .3 diag.
Now I'm not saying thats what your is,I'm just saying,the right guy sometimes can jump thru the right hoops.
Good luck to you...
JIm
P.S. Ever watch this old house..you know how they send Tom,Rich,Norm or Roger all over the U.S. to repair stuff...maybe we can start doing that here...Where are you?
Naw,can't do that,if we send Dave,we won't have enough bread crumbs for him to drop to find his way back...
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bryan_kilco
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Feb 26, 2008, 3:00 PM
Post #53 of 78
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Re: CAR PROBLEM SOLVED!
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strong post man, thanks!
well, we (family and I) have been going to the same mechanic ever since I can remember, cause he's cheap and right up the road.
After having the car at his shop a few times, and him not being able to do anything to it, we took it to a new shop, where they replaced the sensors I mentioned before. Each time I got it back, I was certain it was fine, untill 30 mins or the next day...when it would stall on me.
So, after 2 1/2 weeks at this new shop, they finally got it to act up on them. Just waiting on them to actually do something to it and call me.
NOTE: I did test for spark while my girlfriends dad and I were tinkering with it, and when it wasnt starting, it appreared to NOT be getting any spark. we were testing some of the terminals (?) at the harness to the coils/ignition mod., and only 1 actually showed sign of current when key was at "ON" position.
after deciding it was not getting spark, we put everything back together, and I tried to start it and she fired right up.
is this pointing strongly to coils/ign. mod.?!?! plugs/wires are pretty new.
(This post was edited by bryan_kilco on Feb 26, 2008, 3:25 PM)
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Double J
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Feb 27, 2008, 12:18 PM
Post #54 of 78
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Hey..
I certainly wasn't implying that your mechanic or the ones now are inferior in any way.
Just that some guys are great diagnosticians and some aren't.Some vehicles when the problem is intermittent like this can certainly challenge the best of us for sure.
Every tech, regardless of their knowledge,certifications,etc has a specialty and or a "thing" their good at and prefer to do.
Some guys are "grunts",some are finesse guys...
I used to work with a guy that could screw up a 1 cylinder tune up, and admit it... but man could he r & r/rebuild an engine, trans,etc...but a tune up/drive-ability,no start,forget it..
There is a procedure for performing diagnostics ,based on the symptom/symptoms, etc...In other words ,a no start condition ,chart will guide to a starting point to check and based on the results,send you down paths to find the problem...now granted,some times while checking ,intermittent problems will all of a sudden go away and the vehicle will start..so it can be frustrating,but eventually you should find it,And when you do, a lot of times its just the basics,simple correction..Or at least is sounds simple once you know what it is...LOL....
I'll try to find a diagram for this and post it....
With that said,to answer your question, sounds like it could be a module problem ,if module is getting a signal from the crankshaft position sensor, then it should fire the coils.
When it acts up,check for a cranking rpm with a scan tool.if so,module is receiving a signal.
JEEZ...don't even remember everything thats been done ...
Has module been replaced at all?
I don't feel like re-reading this entire post...post back with everything thats been replaced up to now...
I'll try to find the no-start chart...
Later
JIm
(This post was edited by JIM N on Feb 27, 2008, 12:39 PM)
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Double J
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Feb 27, 2008, 12:41 PM
Post #55 of 78
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Found the charts,,but too much to print.....
But your mechanic I would hope has access to these...
I remember you posting recently that the shop finally got the car to act up and "will call when they get the chance to check it out"....
It sounds like ,from that, that they didn't get right on it....I would think they would,this should be a priority when it acts up...
Parts that go bad when hot,cool off and check fine...especially things like sensors and modules....
A buddy of mine had one of these, he would have a problem of stalling out only on hard turns like an expressway ramp or hard right turns when the fuel was 1/4 tank or lower......his was due to a mispositioned fuel pump/strainer on the fuel tank sending unit causing the strainer not to stay submerged in fuel and engine starving for fuel...GM had a new design strainer/pump to install to cure this..
Jim
(This post was edited by JIM N on Feb 27, 2008, 12:51 PM)
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bryan_kilco
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Feb 27, 2008, 1:34 PM
Post #56 of 78
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parts changed so far: CPS, VSS, MAF.
neither the coil or ignition module have been changed.
I would have thought the mechs would get RIGHT ON IT as well...since it's been in and out of their shop 5 times, and this last visit alone is going on 1 month.
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Double J
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Feb 27, 2008, 1:43 PM
Post #57 of 78
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I cannot believe that when it stalls and there is no spark that the module hasn't been checked/addressed.I would hope that they did.
HMMMMM.....
Sometimes the problem stares you right in the face...
Miss the first stair,fall down the rest....
Get a known good one and try it yourself....
I remember you saying the cam sensor was replaced with a used one...does that check ok?...
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bryan_kilco
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Feb 27, 2008, 2:33 PM
Post #58 of 78
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well the no-spark thing there....I figured the mechs would know better than me. I just dont get why it wouldnt get spark, then a few mins later, start right up?
as for the cam senor....I cant even tell you for sure what happened with that. the old mech we were taking it to supposedly changed it, but I dont know if he put a used or new one in....the car still acted up, about 2 days later. I really am not positive what he did...he was getting old and seemed like he just didnt want to work on the car. tells me he replaced a CAM sensor, then the next time I call him and told him that when he DID replace it, the car ran ok for a few days....then he tells me "that's not the problem or the check engine light would be on"....
Im seriously very tired of all of this. and...if I have to get rid of the car after all of this, I'm REALLY going to be ticked! 
(This post was edited by bryan_kilco on Feb 27, 2008, 2:43 PM)
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Double J
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Feb 27, 2008, 2:58 PM
Post #59 of 78
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Thats the thing with electronics..they get hot and mess up..cool down and there ok..no rhyme or reason to it...
Crankshaft sensors are great for that...ohm readings, say should be between 900-1200,get hot ,can read 1300 plus..cool down there ok again...Saturn/GM has had a real issue with those...
Modules are known for that as well...I remember when GM first came out with their HEI ignition,made its debut on certain 1974 vehicles...my dad had one,an Olds....You could be driving along and it would just stall out,not start until it cooled off..sometimes an hour or more......in those days when it first started happening..it was a "mystery"...not too many people/mechanics were schooled enough yet on HEI ignition...We learned pretty quickly....
Yours has a different style ignition system than the basic HEI but modules like yours still act up the same...
Heres a suggestion that you may not want to hear or do but hear goes...
Why not just take it to Buick/GM and have at least diagnostics done on it...let 'em keep it until it acts up ..see what they say and then decide if you want them to fix it or take it elsewhere....probably worth the money for diag. compared to the grief and prolonged time its taking now....ask 'em to put their "best " guy on it...
See what happens....W T F..
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bryan_kilco
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Feb 27, 2008, 3:48 PM
Post #60 of 78
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well, I did call the local GM dealer, and the guy talked to a tech right away. Said the only problem they've encountered similar to mine was crank sensor, coil, or connection.
Then, I called the mechinic where my car is, told them who I just talked to, and what they told me....and the mechanic basically took the words out of my mouth as I was saying "cps, coil, or connection".....
weird thing is.....I've started the car, and drove it right away (purposely NOT warming it up) and it stalled not even 45 seconds down the road. After it restarted, then stalled two more times, it ran fine for about another half-hour of driving.
if these guys dont call me back by Friday, I'm probably pulling it from their shop, and taking it to GM. I just hate to let them have it for almost a month and not fix my problem.
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idowindows
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Feb 28, 2008, 10:26 AM
Post #61 of 78
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So have the electronics (security system) and the fuel (pump/filter) have been totally eliminated for this cause?
Or are they still "in the mix"?
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Double J
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Feb 28, 2008, 2:09 PM
Post #62 of 78
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Usually the security (passlock) system will shut off the injectors and disable the starting system....this has no spark...correct?...
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bryan_kilco
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Feb 29, 2008, 8:00 AM
Post #63 of 78
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well called the shop again. They were like "Oh yeah, we DO still have that car, dont we?!"
apparently, they didnt actually get it to stall for them, but it hiccuped for them. I have no clue what the hell is going on with these guys and I'm totally fed up. Its been a freaking MONTH and they havent done a single thing to it.
Now that you guys mention it, there was mention of a security error code being thrown a while back, but I think they may have solved that.
This is just totally insane. Never buying one of these cars again as long as I live.
I mean...what else can I do? Tell them to drop the tank? Change coil/igniton mod? Either I call them today and go pick it up and take it somewhere else, or just keep waiting, which doesnt seem to be helping.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 29, 2008, 9:14 AM
Post #64 of 78
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They're stuck - Take it elsewhere. If the shop it's at now isn't paying any attention now then it's over with them. Have they said or you asked what their plan is for this?
Has been rare but when something like this ever happened to me I must stop and talk to the customer and see what they want to do. "Do you want ME to send it along or do YOU want to find another place?" I have my list of places that work with me for assorted things like this and many types of work I simply don't do or wish not to as I've worked alone for ions and that doesn't help with some repairs.
A month now is too long. Allow some fresh blood to take this on,
T
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bryan_kilco
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Feb 29, 2008, 10:57 AM
Post #65 of 78
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they havent said/asked about a plan for this. They just sorta say "we'll call you when we take a look at it".
It seems like it isnt much of a priority for them at all anymore. Guess I'll be taking it elsewhere. I'm just afraid the next guy will have it for just as long....
would I be wise to just ask them to replace the coil and igntion module, and go from there? Maybe if that doesnt work, I'll have them replace the fuel pump and filter....maybe check to see if something is floating in the tank?
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Tom Greenleaf
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Feb 29, 2008, 11:25 AM
Post #66 of 78
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92 Buick LeSabre continued
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It's up to you if you want to start tossing parts at your direction. They should be able to do better than that. Give them a time limit as obviously it isn't even getting looked at. Ask them to drive it to and from work themselves if they will - that may speed it up!
T
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bryan_kilco
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Feb 29, 2008, 11:29 AM
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Re: 92 Buick LeSabre continued
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they claim to have been driving it to get lunch and parts, etc....the only thing that happened for them was a hiccup (the car sorta dies fora split second, check engine light comes on, but the car doesnt actually stall).
I told them to drive it for a bit, park it, then try driving it again....as that is when it seems to act up the most for me.
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bryan_kilco
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Mar 28, 2008, 7:28 AM
Post #68 of 78
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Re: 1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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ok guys....a little update.
car was at the shop. 7 goddamn weeks. they drove it and drove it and drove it, they claimed, and could NOT get it to act up for them. I go fed up and just went down and picked it up.
It ran fine for 2 days, and the only thing that happened was it hiccuped and check engine light came on for a second or 2, but didnt stall.
Yesterday and today it wont start. It rained both days. Moisture problem?! Should I spray some wire dry on it?
I think I'll get it running again and try to dump some water over the engine and see what happens.
this is INSANE!!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 28, 2008, 8:07 AM
Post #69 of 78
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Re: 1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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Some progress perhaps in that it reacts to the rainy day. I'd use a blow drier and dry out the high voltage parts and get it running again. Engine heat alone dries out unseen spots most of the time later. Then when it's running again but carefully spray the wires, connections, boots coil(s) and see if it will stall on one that you hit. Go one at a time so you might target the spot! Just a spray bottle like for window cleaner and easy on hot parts. Most water will do but actually clean water won't so use some table salt (tad) in the water to pollute it.
It's a bit off the wall but you can ohm test distilled water for instance and it doesn't conduct electricity - almost all other water will and exacerbate a weak spot's problem,
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Mar 28, 2008, 8:10 AM)
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bryan_kilco
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Mar 28, 2008, 9:01 AM
Post #70 of 78
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Re: 1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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well now im just confused. it stopped raining, but was still really wet outside. went out, she started right up.
idled for a few mins, then died. I restarted it right up with some slight sputtering/hesitation.
ill try the water bottle trick i guess. what parts should i really be looking to spray? plugs/wires/coils?
EDIT: I just ran it and sprayed water on the coils/boots and some other areas, didnt stall.
(This post was edited by bryan_kilco on Mar 28, 2008, 9:37 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 28, 2008, 10:00 AM
Post #71 of 78
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Re: 1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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Oh well Is there a spot that rain water might be getting on engine too much? Since this is a total die out and not just skipping I'm not thinking the plugs or wires are the fault if this test was a lucky find.
Wire drier or WD-40 sprayed on suspect parts when it's not running might cover a moisture related problem for the moment and would be interesting to know if that worked and where you sprayed when it worked. Gotta do stuff like that item by item and try or you don't know which was at fault. The wire drier approach is the same as the wetting stuff approach. The drier stuff may get you running if it works but you know it's not a permanant fix,
T
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bryan_kilco
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Mar 28, 2008, 10:04 AM
Post #72 of 78
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Re: 1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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im lost here. i finally was able to hear the fuel pump humming for a few seconds today. so that rules out the pump, right?
I really dont see where water could be getting on/into engine parts as everything seemed pretty dry under the hood even after 2 days of rain.
=(
guess i just have to try a different mechanic and see what happens.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 28, 2008, 12:05 PM
Post #73 of 78
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Re: 1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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If you hear the fuel pump pressure up AND shut off that's pretty normal. Can anything be ruled out in this case - NO!
I'm sure it's already said but if a blast of starting fluid makes it fire up for a few seconds then the problem IS fuel. You could also get an in-line spark tester (KD Tools makes one I have) and leave it on a plug wire to plug and if it doesn't blink there's a spark problem. That type of thing would help if you don't have long to catch it in act for at least a direction to follow.
I know we mentioned it back in this record setting thread that a new mechanic with just a cursory expaination of what the problem is might just nail it down. Tech's should jump on this and find the problem or suggest another if they are lost - it happens - not too often but sometimes the best of em "just can't see the forest thru all those damn trees" if you will and it's staring right at them.
What do you want to do about this at this point? Car can't be much use to you the way it is,
T
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bryan_kilco
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Mar 28, 2008, 12:10 PM
Post #74 of 78
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Re: 1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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well, as stated before, when we chekced for spark we also blasted her with some starter fluid with no luck.
I have to sincerely thank you all for all your help so far, and I apologize for this record breaking thread.
I'll probably contact someone else and try to get it into another shop soon.
Do you think I should just try replacing the coils/ignition module myself? seems like a fairly easy swap, and who knows....
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 28, 2008, 1:35 PM
Post #75 of 78
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Re: 1992 Buick LeSabre stalls randomly
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I'm not going to search back but if this is the 3.8 Buick - coil packs and module under then they aren't all that bad to swap out - rusted fasteners could be an issue. I'd be cheap doing that as a guess and go get used ones from a junk car that was obviously running when rendered junk which I can do here. Replaced one module new on an 88 Park Ave once that would run fine for months but would just quit when real cold only like left in a parking lot all day but always worked perfectly above 20F or if parked in a garage. Couldn't catch it in the act but witnessed it once only as no spark - tossed that with owner's permission that I was out of ideas and it did do it once again - I saved that part as if it did do it again it meant the old one was good! Gotta look and see if I still have that - I might! If the same thing I'd send it to you for the cost of postage! If I recall it was a couple hundred bucks - donn't know now what they are.
That was ages ago now and folks traded the car over that and wanted a new car anyway so it was never solved by me. I think there were 3 separate coil packs on that car - forget now??
T
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