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1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 17, 2023, 2:18 PM
Post #26 of 49
(1223 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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Why does it rule out th scan tool?
Don't you have data to tell you when the fan is commanded on. You're making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
If this scan tool isn't doing what it needs to then you just need a different scan tool.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 17, 2023, 2:37 PM
Post #28 of 49
(1217 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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I use a number of different professional scan tools Like Snapon Solus pro (discontinued) and Autel Maxisys Ultra. Autel makes also some decent stuff a lot cheaper than the Maxisys Ultra.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 17, 2023, 5:00 PM
Post #30 of 49
(1197 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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The available data is determined by the vehicle but I would be shocked if it didn't make the fan status available.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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WrenchPincher
User
Jun 17, 2023, 7:17 PM
Post #31 of 49
(1185 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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So a little good news......
Today I received a new ECT sensor and replaced the old one, which was the one on the vehicle when I bought it some 15 years ago.
The old sensor passed all specified tests and was right on the mark with resistance both cold and hot.
Still, after replacing it suddenly the fans began to work and now come on with out turning on the AC at exactly the temperature the FSM says they should.
However, in the process it turns out one of the fans is not working properly.
One runs at what appears to be the appropriate speed while the other seems to slow down to a crawl. They are not independently connected. Meanwhile the engine struggles to stay cool. I assume that's because only one fan is doing it's job. Went ahead and ordered an entire new complete fan assembly for the vehicle and it will be here Monday.
Hammer, you were spot on with your Fan problem call. Good job.
Components that pass diagnostic tests can be misleading.
Thanks for the assist.
Hoping that finally resolves all of the overheating issues.
If it still runs hot at all I'll install a new radiator. Sitting for 4 years probably did not do the radiator any good internally.
From this vehicles FSM.....
Fan Operation Low Fan Speed
30%
On: 104°C (220°F)
High Fan Speed
100%
On: 110°C (230°F) Fan
Off: 101°C (214°F) Fan Speed
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 17, 2023, 7:28 PM
Post #32 of 49
(1180 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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I wouldn't be too concerned about the radiator. If it cools down when driving, the radiator is doing it's job.
Not sure where you are getting that info from.
This is from a factory TSB NUMBER: 26-10-99B
GROUP: Miscellaneous
DATE: October, 1999
REVISIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED WITH BLACK BARS IN THE MARGIN
Models:
1999 Caravan, Voyager, Town & Country Service Manual - Publication Number 81-370-9105
DESCRIPTION OF CHANGES
Revision to the cooling fan relay information
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 17, 2023, 7:32 PM)
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WrenchPincher
User
Jun 18, 2023, 5:49 AM
Post #33 of 49
(1131 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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That is REALLY good information there!
If I'm reading the TSB correctly, it says the fans should come on (at low speed) at 215F then ramp up to high speed at 225F. So I may still have some kind of issue since they don't come on at the low speed at 215F.
Could be a PCM issue. Everything else I believe has been covered.
That TSB certainly over rides the info in the FSM.
The information I have comes directly from the official Factory Service Manual for the 1999 Dodge Grand Caravan.
I need to do my homework and find ALL the TSB's for this vehicle.
Thank you so much for posting that. I'll add it to my database for this vehicle.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 18, 2023, 5:55 AM
Post #34 of 49
(1128 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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That was only a small part of that TSB but the part that dealt with the fan operation.
Much of it dealt with things like belts and how to replace the relay.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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WrenchPincher
User
Jun 20, 2023, 7:06 AM
Post #35 of 49
(1101 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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Good Morning.
I would like to post a copy of the OBD2 data for this vehicle related to the O2 sensors. Maybe you could take a look and tell me if you think it's possible I have a Cat restriction issue? The Sensor readings are a bit off I think.
The reason is that I am getting Emissions failure and catalyst failure notices from the ELM327 OBD2 reader.
The vehicle sat for 4 years.
I'm wondering it there's a possibility my Cat is restricted and compounding the heating issue.
I signed up for the Image Hosting but every time I try to upload an image it returns an error. I tried jpg, jpeg, gif and bmp. All failed. File size is 43kb.
Thanks
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 20, 2023, 7:25 AM
Post #36 of 49
(1099 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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Ways w/o wild tech to check exhaust restrictions - for any reason:
* If you can "T" tap into actual manifold vacuum even use hose to brake booster if vacuum. Then read what you have with a vacuum gauge at idle. Should be around 18Hg +/- for altitude if applicable.
* Now raise idle to 2,000 RPM, hold there or a little higher should read the same. If lower you have a restriction.
** Finding it. If you can undo pipe to engine just to loose (AYOR) test that again. If you can remove an O2 sensor (AYOR) do again. After cat sensor if that wasn't helpful do that to rear one after cat.
*That leaves a muffler could be a box of crushed crackers inside! Can't let air thru.
* Bent pipe (tailpipe?) have you even looked there or for damage of pipe enough?
First or last any of this just feel flow carefully out tailpipe requires knowing it's different than once before.
Helper or RPM holding RPM is handy.
If really elusive and bad readings taking pipe off at manifold is only way IMO then IDK may need to replace exhaust it holds water if just condensation - rust stays the water should boil out if it's driving long enough, Tom
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 20, 2023, 8:41 AM
Post #37 of 49
(1094 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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We already advised you that you cannot determine if a Cat is clogged by the 0/2 readings.
You either have to analyze vacuum readings or take a pressure test before the Cat.
Also. overheating is not a symptom of a clogged Cat.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 20, 2023, 8:43 AM)
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WrenchPincher
User
Jun 20, 2023, 10:17 AM
Post #38 of 49
(1086 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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No, the O2 readings were to determine if the O2 readings looked normal. I compared the readings from this vehicle to those from my 2005 and the 2005 had much more stable 2nd O2 sensor readings.
That's interesting.
Googling the issue I find a lot of shops saying that a clogged Cat can cause overheating by restricting the exit of hot exhaust gases. That made sense.
So much conflicting advice out there. Just so you know I didn't make that up.
https://www.repairsmith.com/blog/clogged-catalytic-converter/#3
3. Can a Clogged Converter Cause an Engine to Overheat?
Yes, a bad catalytic converter can cause your engine to overheat. This happens because a clogged converter restricts the exhaust flow and stops hot exhaust fumes from exiting the engine.
A major blockage will heat up the exhaust manifold, cause catalytic converter failure, and raise engine temperatures, which can wreak havoc on the other engine components.
Note: The exhaust manifold is responsible for gathering up harmful gas and leading them to the catalytic converter.
(This post was edited by WrenchPincher on Jun 20, 2023, 10:29 AM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 20, 2023, 10:33 AM
Post #40 of 49
(1079 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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I have dealt with many a clogged converter and overheating is not one of the symptoms.
When a converter gets clogged it restricts exhaust. The result of that is if the engine can't breath out, then it doesn't breath in either and that just kills the engine. A clogged cat will make the engine just not respond to throttle and eventually will not even come off idle.
But like you have already been advised a couple times if you really want to eliminate that possibility then do the testing advised but I can tell you that if your car still produces full power the Cat is not clogged.
What happened with the fan that wasn't working?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 20, 2023, 10:34 AM)
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WrenchPincher
User
Jun 20, 2023, 2:25 PM
Post #41 of 49
(1056 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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What happened with the fan that wasn't working?
I took the entire fan assembly off the vehicle, brought it inside and tested the whole thing on my bench.
Couldn't find a dang thing wrong with it.
You know how sometimes the light from certain sources can make it look like things aren't moving or moving slower than they are? I think that's what happened. Bottom line...I think the fans are fine.
While the fans were out (I'm just testing everything for the sake of it), I had the radiator fully exposed so I used my thermal camera to watch it warm up.
I didn't see anything really calling attention but it did look as though the top 7 inches or so got fully hot while the bottom 7 inches seemed to lag behind. I wish I could post the video. It started raining just as the temp was reaching 180 so I had to stop. Will try again later. Kinda doubt the radiator is clogged but it's possible there could be sludge at the bottom or some corrosion from sitting 4 years.
Or, the radiator could be fine. Hard to tell.
I keep trying to upload images but all I get is this...............Successful Uploads:
None
Unsuccessful Uploads:
RadiatorWarming - (invalid format)
Only images of the following types are accepted: jpg, jpeg, gif, bmp, png, pdf.
It is a .png, 50kb
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 20, 2023, 2:51 PM
Post #42 of 49
(1048 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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That happens sometimes. When it does I use https://postimages.org/
I don't need to see your video of the radiator.
We have pretty much run the course with this problem. I still say there is a problem with the fan but when everything else is ruled out, the only thing left is a blown head gasket pumping combustion gasses into the cooling system.
Very common, especially with the high mileage you have.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 20, 2023, 3:12 PM
Post #43 of 49
(1044 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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IDK if this radiator is made to simply route rows in order or some strange re-routed on purpose (inside it) type 1999 didn't think so.
Heat is/was tougher for some reason on these early but I thought solved before this.
Take radiator out hope you can plain see the crust situation if so IDK if you can flush that out effectively long before this model year strange electrolysis if you call it that was MOPAR all over the place as if it used it for a grounding item. If any suspicions and this van overall OK swap it out for new it sat with same antifreeze that long too IDK if it took a hit? IDK if some "universal" lifetime bull product is in it or if you do also not sure those really get along with each other??
You have some funky equipment is great sorry for pic posting at this site it works or doesn't like wind direction in some storm for assorted device will or give you fits it can be done - with yours or use some hosting site YOUR stuff only please and link to it. Tom
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Jun 20, 2023, 3:15 PM)
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WrenchPincher
User
Jun 20, 2023, 3:48 PM
Post #44 of 49
(1031 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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That happens sometimes. When it does I use https://postimages.org/ I don't need to see your video of the radiator. We have pretty much run the course with this problem. I still say there is a problem with the fan but when everything else is ruled out, the only thing left is a blown head gasket pumping combustion gasses into the cooling system. Very common, especially with the high mileage you have.
I hope you don't close the thread until I find (and post) the final outcome.
It might help someone else later.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 20, 2023, 3:53 PM
Post #45 of 49
(1028 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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This is starting to just go in circles now and it's time to come to a close.
We give you advice but you have your own ideas so we can't help you any further. we're just beating a dead horse now.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your radiator. It's working just the way it is supposed to but if you want to throw more money at it go right ahead.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 20, 2023, 3:55 PM)
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WrenchPincher
User
Jun 20, 2023, 3:56 PM
Post #46 of 49
(1024 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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Hi Tom,
I'm not sure either. It's a cheap Chinese replacement I installed about 6 years ago. Yes, I have a new radiator arriving Friday and I will either install it or put in my parts storage for this vehicle. Depends on what I find.
I still do not know exactly what the issue is here. I posted earlier that it cools down when I'm driving, but after thinking about that a while, I'm not really sure it cooled down much when moving. Maybe a little but not enough.
Hammer could be right, maybe I have a head gasket issue.
I've gotten some good advice here and I've taken it all in. I may be having multiple issues and not just one. That's what happens with old, high mileage vehicles and especially if left sitting for a long time.
Here's that radiator heating thing I mentioned. Not sure if this looks normal of off a bit. Seems to be ignoring the bottom half somewhat.
(This post was edited by WrenchPincher on Jun 20, 2023, 4:01 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 20, 2023, 5:04 PM
Post #48 of 49
(998 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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Refresh for this as by page 2 issues should be solved.
You've done a lot with some very cool tools for observations.
I suggest you think of this whole vehicle as new to you just knowing it had a time-out for 4 years what are pattern failures over time.
Whatever the machine there are known scheduled things to do always list time/miles and under what conditions to do more often.
Reset your approach it expecting issues that are not just common to vehicles in general in use and have been.
> There isn't going to be a standard approach for this. I do trust you'll get thru anything that crops up to use the thing yet again, Tom
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 20, 2023, 5:14 PM
Post #49 of 49
(995 views)
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Re: 1999 Dodge Caravan Running Hot
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The fan works--then it doesn't work--now it works
The engine cools when driving-- now it doesn't cool when driving
The temp sensor is good -- then it isn't good
There's no fan data in the computer -- now there is fan data in the computer
550F before the cat. 625F after the cat. -- so apparently the Cat reheats the exhaust
Like I said, we're going in circles. Good luck with the problem.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 20, 2023, 5:16 PM)
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