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Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Paws_Buick
Novice
Mar 3, 2015, 10:58 PM
Post #1 of 22
(2097 views)
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Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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I have a 97 Buick century with a 3.1 v6. I am having an issue with starting the car. I have replaced the starter, alternator, crankshaft sensor, as well as a new battery. When the serpentine belt is off the car starts great but as soon as I put the belt on I have the problem. If someone knows of a remedy that would be great.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 2:07 AM
Post #2 of 22
(2079 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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First thing I would check if NOT cranking is an item on the belt is locked up solid preventing it from turning,
T
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Paws_Buick
Novice
Mar 4, 2015, 4:53 AM
Post #3 of 22
(2061 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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I checked all the pulleys. All could be rotated by hand expect the a/c pulley and the harmonic balancer. But before it stopped running the ac was working fine.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 5:35 AM
Post #4 of 22
(2052 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Is that a typo "expect" vs "except" the A/C pulley? If it's locked solid for any reason now it could be strong enough to prevent engine from turning and running.
Is belt routed properly AND on each pulley exactly right? A/C should just be a freewheeling pulley with A/C off. Outer plate is turning the compressor itself when engaged. Is that outer plate damaged and stuck in some way? Will it spin with belt off or can't even spin (may take good gloves and some strength) turn the outer pulley with belt on or off?
That would be the trouble and since compressor is both a simple pulley and when engaged that not involved it must be damaged,
T
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Paws_Buick
Novice
Mar 4, 2015, 7:28 AM
Post #5 of 22
(2045 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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I do apologize, yes that was a typo. The belt is routed properly in every pulley. I'm going to try a bypass today to see if that is the problem.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 8:23 AM
Post #6 of 22
(2038 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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? By pass the compressor? If you can't turn that by hand that's your problem. Try that with belt off both ways. Once the grooved pulley part should spin easy and coast. From outer plate at least if it ran at all recently would turn as said that is then compressing A/C gas but just setting there would spin by hand or small nut likely at end shaft with little effort same as one on a bench would.
If your compressor has seized up then when car is off or even clutch (whole pulley assembly) it's just a pulley and all the rest is dead weight.
OK - if it all welded up seized, clutch bearing+pulley to shaft of seized compressor A/C is toast IMO and another issue to tend to totally and could get very involved for that to work or just do without it. It would have to be a type you can just get another belt (some you can) and leave it out of the belt system and some you can't so left to fix clutch, replace clutch new or used, whole dead compressor (junk) for just the pulley, a by-pass bracket with pulley and remove whole compressor.
Take a look at it with belt on now and see if a belt could still fit on all the rest and not rub or other things in the way. Nice to know that much before you go hunting for anything IF THIS COMPRESSOR IS ONE TOTAL SEIZED UP PROBLEM now.
Caution with removing it if you get there. It may very well have a charge a refrigerant that if escapes fast can cause freeze burns. You are supposed to get the gas recovered if any is in there.
I really doubt this burned up so bad you can't just use body and shaft of compressor for a holder for a clutch for just a pulley - special tool (should be rentable) to remove and replace just the clutch keeping it still in line with the belt at least is a must,
T
(edit later) If this is the reason you couldn't start the car and worked on it at all you do realize you probably wasted a good alternator, starter, possible battery and the crank sensor job for nothing. If you don't understand which pulleys should run free that just cost you a lot of unnecessary work and expense!)
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Mar 4, 2015, 8:46 AM)
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Paws_Buick
Novice
Mar 4, 2015, 9:45 AM
Post #7 of 22
(2030 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Yes I do understand that if this works it was a costly lesson. On the bright side I know I won't have to worry about any of it for a while.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 10:29 AM
Post #8 of 22
(2026 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Replacing stuff can be good or be a new question of trouble so not all a win win if parts were free to just toss everything.
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding this but think somehow and a bit rare for compressor and clutch (think two different things) failed and stuck together. Here's a pic to help explain......
That should be yours. The black "thingy" is a clutch not always easy to find new but is just put on a spindle that is the shaft to the compressor. Note the belt rides that and should spin free (disengaged) and the somewhat jagged center (why I asked to use gloves) is direct to the shaft pulled in when engaged such that the bearing of the clutch is then still and using bushings/bearings inside the compressor and compressing if it can and not hydrolocked, oil locked or plain seized. If it let go you would just be back to the bearing for the pulley and all the rest dead weight. That bearing is like $12 bucks but parts and tools may be difficult or impossible if this housing melted all up and something must have gone wrong?
So, for whatever reason if this locked up while driving no telling if belt just slipped over it and smoked up, broke or what but would have lost PS and water pump also and would notice if they weren't turning missing the belt or if unable to turn those items. Dash warning would light and so on.
If this thing decided to lock up just overnight by itself that's a total first for me!
The end of this chapter is you need a belt to work and forget the A/C for now unless you wish to go nuts with two projects. A/C is it's own huge bird very costly and easy to fail - forget making it work for now.
I listed your options for getting this to take an OE size belt. I still don't think it will take another as you'll probably find bypassing it with compressor intact belt would then have something in its way as mentioned.
Again - fastest would be a whole used compressor with good clutch pulley you could spin while on the counter and get that in there but still deal with any refrigerant already mentioned. That would be fast and easiest if you needed to use this car real soon with little waiting. Other options you need some time.
I'd still like you to verify this thing is really locked up like that as it's not that common.
Just looked they make a bypass pulley set up for this..........
Shows $39 bucks from Autozone in my area and in stock for me locally.
Be sure this time if you do something like this at all. Compressor will have to come out and this go in its place. Open hose ends then should be plugged off to A/C if you ever think you want that to work again without costing more than anyone would like.
If unsure of any of this have someone look at the issue in person that can absolutely know right where the problem is always better to be right there than educated guesses from a website.
Good luck. If this was my job (it isn't and can't be today if it was here) it would be an easy fix with that bypass bracket and pulley,
T
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Paws_Buick
Novice
Mar 4, 2015, 11:11 AM
Post #9 of 22
(2023 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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While using gloves I attempted to turn the black thingy as you described it while the belt was of and it did not move. I have purchased the same bypass pulley you pictured. I will be installing it shortly.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 11:59 AM
Post #10 of 22
(2021 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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OK - That suggest compressor itself is TOO tight or seized BUT if it didn't melt or jam into the pulley that would still spin free if not stuck engaged as it's a clutch when off and snaps tight such the compressor works - it may have tried and burned everything up?
Quick try unplugging compressor and see if pulley spins if so you're good now. Either way unplug it and wrap and tie it out of harm's way,
T
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Paws_Buick
Novice
Mar 4, 2015, 4:03 PM
Post #11 of 22
(2011 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Ok the jagged center spins freely. But the outer casing on which the belt actually sits is not moving. I'm about to try the bypass pulley to see if that works.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 4:27 PM
Post #12 of 22
(2008 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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That doesn't make any sense or one of us is missing something? If outer pulley with the grooves belt rides on doesn't turn and hub does that doesn't add up.
Someone needs to look at this as apparently I'm not helping or we don't understand how this works. The center "jagged" thing IS THE SHAFT OF THE COMPRESOR AND IF IT TURNS WOULD TURN WHEN YOU CRANKED THE ENGINE! There's something else all wrong going on. It CAN'T be allowed to run compressor under certain conditions or would ruin it or lock it up - it's a clutch for the thing. YOU CAN'T ALLOW THEM TO TRY TO COMPRESS A LIQUID WHICH REFRIGERANT IS WHEN UNDER PRESSURE AT A GIVEN TEMPERATURE! A/C is a course of study all by itself, not going there with this.
By the associative properties of accurate guessing if they make a bypass set up for whole compressor than you can't bypass this one with another belt size and skip compressor.
Again - If you can turn that hub by hand then it makes NO sense that the starter can't!
Other wild possible reasons for the troubles: Belt is routed all wrong but somehow you are getting it on and is fighting itself???? Crankshaft damper (drive pulley at the bottom) is so off belt doesn't line up at all messing whole show up?????
Stop now and get this figured out before you destroy a possible working A/C system errantly! Know that pretty much removing and leaving compressor off vehicle you are giving up permanently on having working A/C in this car as the costs to put it all back would then include more than most would tolerate - thousands possible - are you ready for that or worse cause that if nothing is wrong with compressor at all as now I'm not sure of anything with this,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 5:06 PM
Post #13 of 22
(2004 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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It would make perfect sense if the pulley bearing is bad/seized.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Paws_Buick
Novice
Mar 4, 2015, 5:33 PM
Post #14 of 22
(1998 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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After installing the bypass pulley the car started right up. Thanks for all your help and most of all sharing your knowledge of all possibilities. I'm am greatly appreciative.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 5:53 PM
Post #15 of 22
(1996 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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HT - I'm missing something with this. If it was purposely welded to compressor's shaft it would start still but up top said it plain wont? Then does with belt off. Now what? There has to be some reason or something obviously wrong that OP doesn't see or understand or wouldn't be in trouble with this at all? Tom
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 5:56 PM
Post #16 of 22
(1993 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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It seems very clear to me. The compressor insides are fine but the pulley bearing is seized to the outside of the housing.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 5:58 PM
Post #17 of 22
(1990 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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OK - never saw that happen but would be obvious to me the trouble was right there and just that......... Tom
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 6:27 PM
Post #18 of 22
(1984 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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If the compressor hub bearing is bad and the center spins, you just might be able to install another hub on there if it didn't tear up the hub support. If the compressor isn't leaking, the center spins, and it doesn't leak, you might be able to have your ac working. Another thing too is that you don't have to worry about the system being open to the environment if you wanted to get the ac system working later on.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Mar 4, 2015, 6:30 PM)
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 7:06 PM
Post #19 of 22
(1979 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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After the heat that would have been generated when that bearing seized, I wouldn't trust anything in that compressor. You can spend $150 for a new clutch and buy a whole compressor with a clutch for $200 or a little over. Not worth the risk.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 7:13 PM
Post #20 of 22
(1977 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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I have this feeling Paw's 97 Century AC has never worked and isn't going to spend the money to fix the ac system anyhow. Just a guess.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 7:16 PM
Post #21 of 22
(1975 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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He already installed a compressor eliminator pulley so it's a done deal.
I think we can close this now.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2015, 7:19 PM
Post #22 of 22
(1973 views)
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Re: Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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oops skipped that part...
Closed as solved. Can be reopened upon request by the OP. Thank you for the follow up.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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