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Head Gasket Replacement 2002 Chevy Venture
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 9, 2012, 7:45 PM
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Head Gasket Replacement 2002 Chevy Venture
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Well, I figured I may as well go ahead and get my thread started for the 2002 Chevy Venture 3.4 FWD 143k. You guys always give great tips on anything I run into. Earlier today when I was checking for ps leaks I climbed under the vehicle and I definitely saw bubbles coming from the head gasket on the rear right of the engine. They were barely noticeable but I'm 100% sure. Since you guys helped me do the intake earlier this year I'm sure I can refer to that thread for most of my questions. I should be okay on most of this because of the intake job.
I guess the only questions I have so far are...
1) Are there any certain tools I will need? I have everything to get down to the intake. I think the only one I needed for that was a 10mm crows foot.
2) Do you recommend sending the heads off to be pressure tested? It got a little hot when I had the intake gasket issue but I don't think it was ever in the red although it did get close one time I wasn't able to pull off the road immediately. My wife said it never overheated on her but she is the wife so who knows.
3) Is there anything else I should replace while I'm at it?
Like always, I appreciate all the help!
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 10, 2012, 7:38 AM
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Re: Head Gasket Replacement 2002 Chevy Venture
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One other question. A few years ago when I replaced the ac condenser I filled the radiator by leaving the cap off and starting the engine. It seemed to work good because it filled it up and got most of the air out. I did that again the other day after I installed the tranny but coolant came gushing out of the radiator. Did this happen because of the head gasket or did I just get lucky the time I did the condenser and the gushing is normal? Could it have anything to do with the water pump or am I just way off? When I replaced the timing chain the water pump seemed to be okay but I'm not completely sure how to check one. It seemed to spin okay and felt like it turned smooth. The reason I'm asking this is because when I went to order a head gasket kit I came across others having the gushing issue and some mentioned it could be the water pump. I don't believe everything I read unless it's from the experts here.
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Discretesignals
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Dec 10, 2012, 8:50 AM
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The tools that you used to remove the intake manifold are pretty much what your going to need to remove the cylinder heads. The only other tools you'll need is a torque wrench and an angle gauge when you go to reinstall the head bolts.
You should send the heads out to a machine shop for reconditioning and inspection of cracks. One thing that I have notice on those heads is the coolant ports on the ends tend to get eroded. Sometimes they are so bad you have to replace the entire head.
If there is air in the system while your waiting for the thermostat to open, the air will expand as the engine gets hot causing coolant to gush out. As soon as the thermostat opens, it should take coolant. Were you using a funnel? They have those spill free funnels that work well and are cheap.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Dec 10, 2012, 8:51 AM)
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Hammer Time
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Dec 10, 2012, 9:04 AM
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I don't like filling it that way because the coolant will boil at a lower temp when not under pressure and sometimes make it hard to fill. Vacuum filling is the very best way to get all the air out.
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 10, 2012, 10:37 AM
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It gushed out right when I started the engine and the engine was cold. I've just never had that happen before. I did use a funned but it didn't fit in there tight.
What do you mean by vacuum filling HT? Just fill and use the bleeder valve?
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Hammer Time
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Dec 10, 2012, 11:11 AM
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No, there is a tool that puts the system under vacuum and then it sucks the coolant in. Never have to run the engine and never have an air pocket.
A bunch of different companies make them.
Here is one
http://www.tooltopia.com/uview-550500int.aspx
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Tom Greenleaf
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Dec 10, 2012, 12:22 PM
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The vacuum way takes all the pain out of it. MG - some plain will do that gush back thing before they could be hot enough for it to be boiling somewhere. Can be done on most without but takes plenty of time, short times of running engine. Cap always back on if running engine so you don't get a face full.
Some plain impossible without vacuum fill. If you must do without tilt the dang whole vehicle till the radiator cap is high. If you know capacity and how much you've put in till you can allow a full warm up, feel it by temp of hoses, running heater and all the observations. If you don't have one get at least the infrared touchless thermometer. A whopping $25 or so. Gotta learn it and when it makes mistakes first. Small as a key fob remote - Radio Shack once stocked them. Hate them and this is archived but that HF company has them dirt cheap and I won't go there.
Keep it right handy all the time and right now. In kitchen just checked refrigerator and freezer is 1.5F -- why do I want to know? 'Cause the damn power can go out and need to know when to toss things out!
T
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 10, 2012, 4:58 PM
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Now that would be a nice way to fill the radiator! An infrared thermometer would be nice to have too. You can use those to check the temp of a slab of meat on the grill too, correct? Looks like I might be adding a few other items to the Christmas list. If not I'll just tell the wife I need them for the head gasket job. "But hun, just look at all the money I'm saving us". That line works every time.
Well, I almost have the heads off. The only problem I have so far is one of the manifold bolts was broke. There's probably about 3/4" of the bolt still in the head. Once I get the head off can I just drill it out and tap it for the next size bolt? I guess I could wait until after I get them pressure tested. I might not have to even screw with it but I hope I have to.
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 10, 2012, 10:15 PM
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Huh, I wonder why my post above has the big space in between paragraphs.
Thanks HT. And that's exactly why I'm so glad I found this forum. Do you know how many stupid mistakes you've kept me from making? I'm just glad nobody is counting or else I'd look like big ole' idiot!
I finished removing the heads earlier this evening. I plan on trying to find a local shop in the morning who does pressure testing. As easy as the other bolts came out I don't think I'll have a problem getting the broken one out. If not, machine shop can take care of that too.
What kind of valve spring compressor do you use? I have one that I picked up from carquest and it doesn't seem to be worth a crap. It's very likely the operator though. It's made by Lisle and has the two handles. You leave one handle in the up position. The two arms on the bottom grip towards the bottom of the spring. You're then suppose to pull down on the handle that was in the up position that operates the fork thingy. It's somewhat adjustable but it doesn't seem to want to compress the spring enough.
Another question. Is there a good way to clean or clear out the water passages in the block? From the looks of things the previous may have used some sort of radiator crap fix. There was some rubbery type junk around the top of the passages. I tried getting what I could with some needle nose. What about hooking a small hose up to a shop vac?
Should I use scotch brite to clean up the surfaces? My buddy who works on cars would always use some sort of rubber type pad that had small nubs. It seemed to do a pretty good job. I've looked all over for one but have never found one. Is something like that good to use?
Thanks for all the help and advice!
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Dec 11, 2012, 12:16 AM)
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Hammer Time
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Dec 11, 2012, 4:12 AM
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Why do you need a spring compressor? You should be sending these heads to the machine shop in one piece and let them advise you on what they may need. The only spring compressor I own is for changing seals or springs while the heads are still on the car.
As far as cleaning out the block, not tricks there. All I could advise is to remove the lower hose and any removable plugs in the block ad shoot a high pressure garden hose through is but the chemical should have been run through to loosen it up before taking it apart.
We have a little air tool for cleaning the gasket surfaces off that has small replaceable "cookie" pads.
This might be the one you're referring to
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(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Dec 11, 2012, 4:14 AM)
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Discretesignals
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Dec 11, 2012, 6:07 AM
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I wouldn't use the Roloc discs (brown cookies). The pieces that come off can end up in your bearings. GM came out with a TSB a while back about that because they were getting a rash of engines back. I remember when I worked at the dealer and that TSB came out. The service manager came out and said, if I catch anyone using those Rolocs on internal engine parts, they will be buying a new engine.
File In Section: 6 - Engine
Bulletin No.: 87-61-24
Date: April, 1998
INFORMATION
Subject:
Use of "Surface Conditioning Discs"
Models:
1998 and Prior Passenger Cars and Trucks
The Use of "Surface Conditioning Discs"
When cleaning engine gasket sealing surfaces, and/or cleaning parts from an engine which are to be reused; surface conditioning discs (typically a woven fiber pad design) which contain abrasives, such as a high amount of Aluminum Oxide, are not recommended.
The use of such surface conditioning discs dislodge Aluminum Oxide (from the Disc) and metal particles, which can lead to premature engine bearing failure.
The presence of Aluminum Oxide in engine oil has been shown to cause premature engine bearing failure. In some cases this failure occurs in as little as 1,000 miles (2,200 km) or less after the repair has been made.
Surface conditioning discs may grind the component part material and imbed it into the disc. This can result when more aggressive grinding of the gasket surface takes place.
Procedure
A new product from 3M(R) Automotive Aftermarket Division, the Roloc Bristle Disc*, is now available which addresses some of the above concerns.
* We believe this product to be reliable. There may be additional manufacturers of such products. General Motors does not endorse, indicate any preference for or assume any responsibility for any items which may be available from this firm, or for any such items which may be available from other sources.
Caution :^ To avoid personal injury follow standard safety precautions, including the use of safety glasses, should be observed during surface preparation
^ Read the Safety Instructions included with the product before use.
Remove by hand, with a scrapper (plastic scrapper on aluminum surfaces), the bulk of material on the component surface before using the 3M(R) Roloc
Bristle Disc.
Notice :^ Due care must be taken to avoid the entry of any material into the engine block oil and coolant passages when cleaning component surfaces.
^ The presence of foreign material in engine oil has been shown to cause premature engine bearing failure.
Cover or block all engine ports (engine oil and coolant) and open areas (cylinder bores, lifter valley, etc.) to prevent possible contamination when working on the engine.
Vacuum up all contaminants (i.e. dirt, gasket material, etc.).
Important :Engine components, cleaned with 3M(R) Roloc Bristle Disc, should be thoroughly cleaned before re-installing them on the engine block.
The use of a vacuum, spray cleaner GM P/N 12346139 or 12377981, parts cleaner, etc. to remove all traces of contaminant is suggested.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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MarineGrunt
Enthusiast
Dec 11, 2012, 6:51 AM
Post #13 of 47
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"You should be sending these heads to the machine shop in one piece and let them advise you on what they may need."
Remember my stupid comment earlier? Add another one to the list! I figured they had to be removed before taking them to the machine shop. I'm glad though. One less thing to screw with and one less thing I have to look over. I guess all I can do now is try my best to flush the passages. Most of the little gummed up pieces are small so I think if I flush afterwards most will come out. I am going to try removing some plugs though and see what I can get out beforehand.
When I did the tranny I looked all over for those cookie pads but couldn't find any locally. I ended cutting my own and I glued them to a rubber type pad I had. That second picture is exactly what I was referring to.
DS....do you know any kind of store I could pick up the 3M(R) Roloc Bristle Disc locally? Also, it looks like they are color coordinated. Do you know which color I'm suppose to use? I'm sure I can find one online but I'm hoping to get this darn van done back together asap and be done with it!
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Dec 11, 2012, 6:54 AM)
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Hammer Time
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Dec 11, 2012, 6:53 AM
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I'm aware of the TSB but that was mainly an issue when doing an intake manifold. He is doing a block deck and heads that are not on the car and will be changing the oil right after.
Using the plastic ones would take away all risk anyway.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Dec 11, 2012, 6:54 AM)
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 11, 2012, 7:05 AM
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Thanks guys. I found a tool store that has the 3m bristle discs. Maybe I can pick up some of those cookie pads there too.
Will the machine shop clean up the heads too or is that something I need to do before taking them in?
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Dec 11, 2012, 7:06 AM)
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Hammer Time
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Dec 11, 2012, 7:31 AM
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They will pretty much clean them up and probably plane the head surface you you may have to clean up the intake surface a little when it comes back.
Remove any external hardware or studs from the head before giving it to them.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Dec 11, 2012, 7:31 AM)
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 11, 2012, 7:57 AM
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I called a shop and they said they charge $42 per head to pressure test. I thought that was a reasonable price. I don't know if that includes anything else though but I'm guessing no.
With my luck I'll probably end up needing two new heads anyways. I know it doesn't mean much but I took a straightedge to them and they don't seem warped. I'm sure it doesn't take much to throw them off though.
Well, I'm going to get everything stripped off of them, except for the valves, and head to town to drop them off and also pick up some 3M pads.
With all of the work I've done to this van I sure wish it was an old Chevelle or Nova instead.
Do I need to label the heads to make sure they go back in their original place?
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Dec 11, 2012, 7:59 AM)
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Hammer Time
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Dec 11, 2012, 8:16 AM
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I would be shocked if they weren't warped. That what usually triggers the head gasket leak.
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 11, 2012, 8:31 AM
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If they are warped can they just plane them down like you mentioned earlier or will I have to get new heads? Or, is it normally a crack that ends up making the head junk?
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Hammer Time
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Dec 11, 2012, 9:31 AM
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Yes, planing is usually pretty much automatic. The cracks are serious but sometimes they can even weld those. Find a good machine shop (reputation) and ask him for recommendations once he inspects it.
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 11, 2012, 11:04 AM
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I the machine shop I called are pretty much the only ones in the area who can pressure test. I just got back from carquest and was talking to the guy there. He asked what machine shop I was taking them to. When I mentioned the name he said, "That place is always busy. When you walk in you can just see all of the work they have to do in the shop". I guess that's a good sign. I've heard of the place before but have never used them for anything. My mom's neighbor owns a machine shop. They do top notch work but they don't pressure test heads. I'm gonna have to give him hell over that one.
What kind of rtv do you like using for the intake? My buddy who works for Altorfer Cat swears by the grey. I also did some research and I guys a lot of stock car and off road drivers use the grey too. They say Permatex The Right Stuff is some good stuff. I guess it's suppose to be a better grade than the regular Permatex in the tube. I guess it's suppose to hold up better by I personally don't have much experience with it. I've used it before but never on an intake. I've even read some people use the copper, blue, or red instead of the black. Does it just come down to personal preference as long as the rtv is rated for oil and coolant?
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Hammer Time
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Dec 11, 2012, 11:17 AM
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We use black for pretty much everything. You have be careful because some of it is poison to 0/2 sensors. Don't use RTV anywhere but the ends if it doesn't come with rubber ends and only the in corners if it does come with rubber ends. Nothing on the side gaskets.
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 11, 2012, 2:06 PM
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I ordered the Felpro gasket kit. I don't believe it came with the ends so will be using RTV there. When I did the intake earlier this year that kit didn't have them either. Both kits came with rtv though.
The head gasket kit I just got came with new valve stem seals. Do I pull the valves to replace those?
The machine shop said it's an extra $38 per head to plane the surface so I went ahead and told him to do it. He said they should be ready by the weekend. Looks like a I'll have plenty of time to clean everything up and also take a break from the van. It will also get me out of your guy's hair for a few days. Then again, the Sierra is leaking some oil so you might not be so lucky. 
Thanks again.
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Hammer Time
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Dec 11, 2012, 2:42 PM
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I usually give the valve seals to the machine shop if I'm actually going to change them.
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MarineGrunt
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Dec 11, 2012, 4:16 PM
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If I can't make back to the machine shop to drove off the valve stem seals should I even mess with replacing them? Are they all that difficult to replace?
I found I new cleaner/degreaser that works amazingly well. It's called Super Clean. It's in a purple spray bottle. You can also buy it in a gallon jug. This stuff might even work better than parts cleaner when it comes to dissolving grease. Spray it on and wife or wash the part off. The grease and grime comes right off. I use to love using simple green for cleaning but this stuff whoops its butt. I found it at the auto parts store. I'm thinking it may be a great thing to use to flush the cooling system. Pick a bottle up sometime and give it a try. I am very impressed.
(This post was edited by MarineGrunt on Dec 11, 2012, 4:28 PM)
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