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spartadrive_in
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Jul 9, 2008, 7:45 PM
Post #1 of 9
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Oil Leakage PART 2
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2001 Honda Accord EX Sedan 4-cyl. Manual Trans
This is a continuation of my first post.
(Suspected Oil Leak)
The clutch was replaced and of course that did not fix the problem.
I have now noticed some oil (along with a fresh drop) coming from underneath the intake manifold. Near the throttle near where the main air hose connects.
There shouldnt be oil here should there???
A mechanic had told me before about the piston rings being bad (read my first post for more info).
PLEASE HELP. I've been racking my brain on this thing and been under my car checking and double-checking things for weeks.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 10, 2008, 5:27 AM
Post #2 of 9
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Re: Oil Leakage PART 2
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 COPIED POST BY DAN D FROM JUNE 11, 2008
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DanD
Veteran / Moderator
Jun 11, 2008, 5:26 PM
Post #6 of 22 (171 views)
Re: Suspected Oil Leak [In reply to] | Quote | Reply
No spark plugs or a valve cover gasket won’t do anything for that; it may mean reconditioning a portion, if not the entire engine.
Worn oil control piston rings, cylinder walls worn tapered, valve guides or seals worn to the point that oil can get past these items and enter the combustion chamber.
If this is a high mileage car the problem could be a combination of all these things.
With that being said there are still some external things that might be causing this. If the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve is not functioning or the vacuum source to the valve is restricted; crankcase pressures cannot be relieved and this could force oil into the combustion chamber.
Remove the PCV valve from the valve cover, leaving the vacuum hose attached. Start the engine and place your finger over the opening of the valve. You should feel a strong vacuum and hear the engine slow by 50 to 150 rpm. If so the valve is working.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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End of post by Dan early on in this discussion
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Remeber when Dan suggested this test in the first thread on this? You said it behaved but it's still an issue and question mark in this car. It may have strong vacuum but not strong volume also - ie - parts restricted or overtaxed by blow-by from whatever source - back to rings again perhaps?
PCV sysems are designed to separate oil from the misty vapors and return the oil mostly and burn off what's left. Dripping it esternally is not part of the design. We went round and round with that looking for evidence on plugs etc. If now you see the oil dripping or at least a fresh drop please tell me/us how one quart each 250 miles doesn't make a mess somewhere?
I'm going to venture the guess that the crankcase can actually pressure up at certain loads on engine and be pushing oil out the weak spot which you seem to have found. If the crancase pressure is that high no sealing of gaskets is going to do it for long or well. That's indicative of excessive blowby - Dan already mentioned it could mean major work as in items when an engine is really wearning out.
I am surprised compression testing didn't show that but that was well explained also.
Hey - we all knew the clutch was about as likely as a leaking taillight lense - no surprise there,
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Jul 10, 2008, 5:33 AM)
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spartadrive_in
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Jul 10, 2008, 8:55 AM
Post #3 of 9
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Re: Oil Leakage PART 2
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Yes I figured the clutch was baloney but the dealer was willing to pay half the repair so I figured at the very least I can get a new clutch kit installed for 1/2 the price (only cost me $250).
I checked the PCV valve when Dan told me so and it still has a strong vacuum. The small leak was found under the throttle body where it connects at the intake manifold.
So are we all in agreeance that it is the piston rings? I will be getting a second opinion with another mechanic to double check the opinion of the first mechanic I originally went to.
Of course I come here for the 3rd and 4th opinions. Thank you and please any more info is greatly welcomed.
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spartadrive_in
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Jul 11, 2008, 8:21 AM
Post #5 of 9
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Re: Oil Leakage PART 2
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I'll look online for how the oil works in my car then.
The machanic told me that replacing the piston rings and machine shopping the cylinders would cost a total of about $1,200.
You mention 02 sensors. My primary 02 sensor is bad and needs replacing. Does this have anything to do with the oil? Are they related? I didn't think so that is why I have been putting off replacing it since I have a bigger problem to deal with at this moment.
The engine runs fine. Sometimes tho the idle rpms will drop and catch its self back to aout 700 then fall back down again then go back. Just sometimes usually when the engine has been running for a while and is good and hot. Is this also related to my oil/intake issue?
Thanks Tom.
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spartadrive_in
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Jul 11, 2008, 8:28 AM
Post #6 of 9
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Re: Oil Leakage PART 2
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Also you mention it can buy a lot of quarts of oil. Other then being a complete nuisance refilling oil all the time is there any long term effects of running like this? I mean is the engine just going to get worse?? Otherwise it would seem like a worthy option to just use that $1,200 on oil for the next 8 years.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 11, 2008, 11:44 AM
Post #7 of 9
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Re: Oil Leakage PART 2
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This is difficult guess work as even when finished with the $1,200 job what would you expect for oil consumption? How many miles on it now? - you probably said and I can't recall. If rings alone are causing this and they may be cosumption via burning could be very little. There's wear on cylinder walls, pistons and tons more to consider - valves too! Each are responsible for some oil use. When brand new many use little or none between routine changes. Brand new some will use a couple and manufacturers won't fix much until it's really more than a quart in about 800-1,000 miles TMK!
You mentioned you would like another 8 years - quick calculation = 100k more + or - out of it and this may happen again in that many years and miles. Engines don't just up and last forever but some really do get way up there and do well.
Yes - if burning the oil it's going to be hard or harder on o2 sensors and the chance of harming converters. Those can be nasty bucks and should be considered. Not so sure with all o2 sensers but the workings of converters should last a very long time. Some get corrosion issues from outside that is hard to avoid.
If this was my car I'd fix the leak you saw, check on where PCV picks up vapors to see if there's a problem there with oil separating, and switch oil to exactly 0w-30 synthetic for a test first and then go the opposite way to 15-40 or higher # low temp viscosity staying with synthetics and bet that alone would bring oil consumption into a normal range. Again if mine - If that didn't work I'd change out the car for another if it bugged me that much.
Note on 0-30: Just testing out this year in older vehicles and am shocked that it doesn't burn like gas for oil! It just plain doesn't and engines feel like there's less friction which is a wild claim of this by a particular maker known for synthetics. I should add that site sponsor is Amsoil but it wasn't that brand
As always - it's your call. Cars are an expense no matter how you slice it,
T
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spartadrive_in
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Jul 11, 2008, 2:15 PM
Post #8 of 9
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Re: Oil Leakage PART 2
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There is about 112K miles on it now.
Should there be a little oil in the PCV? That is mist accumulating right?
I just bought the car not to long ago. Going on 3 months now and I really like it. The 8 years things was just a joke since you said $1,200 could buy a lot of oil to put in and with a quick calculation that ended up being about 8 years. I suppose I don't plan on having this car THAT long. In 8 years I would be done with school, have a better job, and be making more money to buy a NEW car that is even better. But for now I am just a full time electronics student with a full time job. I need a reliable, somewhat stylish, car and I can't afford to spend the money on multiple repiars nor the time to keep troubleshooting. I have invested a lot of time on this car and that is fine with me since I am learning a lot about how engines work between here and reading books and online and all.
I guess what I'm saying is that I am searching for the solution that will make my car good again so I don't have to worry about (this problem) anymore for 2-3 years or so.
There's just so much other stuff going on.
Thanks and I will get back to you after taking it to another mechanic.
-Alex
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 11, 2008, 3:36 PM
Post #9 of 9
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Re: Oil Leakage PART 2
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"Should there be a little oil in the PCV? That is mist accumulating right?"
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It wouldn't be clean but shouldn't be dripping in oil either. PCV = Positive Crankcase Ventilation which became law in 1964 model year vehicles sold to the US. Before that there were "breather" oil caps, vent tubes to ground and the fumes just weren't reburned. Made for a dirty engine and they used like a mesh of steel wool in the breathers so stop all the oil held withing the vapors from just getting out or in PCV engines it still has to sort it somehow or everthing would be using too much oil. The valve itself is basically just a ball (heavy) against manifold vacuum and is a metered vacuum leak really. The valve itself would stop much oil by being slow and the motion (rattle) many make would shake off droplets perhaps. This is the most I've though about those little suckers in a while - forgive me!
Ones that went right into valve covers usually had a baffle inside and out of sight that kind of sorted out fumes from oil droplets. That function isn't really a service item. If sludge is a factor the whole show gets messed up - you should know if that's a factor now and can usually tell just by looking under oil filler cap or on dipsick - higher up should still be cleanish.
If this PCV valve hasn't been replaced by you since this problem was known to exist (didn't re-read the whole show here) then just up and get one from Honda - the exact right one! I just wonder if we aren't all fooled by something so stupid like that! If a wrong one is there or even faulty and can draw too much volume it could be the whole problem! Check on that. For the most part a PCV can last the life of the engine but do get replaced a lot just because it's on the list of things to do and they are high on the list for the quickie oil change places to sell new ones all the time!
T
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I'd persue fixing what you found first. This ring job is an expensive undertaking and results probably would improve oil consumption if done with meticulous attention to all items involved in doing it. It may still use some at the great effort and expense.