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intrepid only runs on starter floid
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lesonli
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Sep 16, 2009, 12:58 AM
Post #1 of 10
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intrepid only runs on starter floid
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95 dodge intrepid 3.5 mfi. will only try to start with starter fluid. car sat for 2.5 years w/ full tank. have dumped old fuel, ran 5 gal new fuel thru lines with new pump, pressure regulator, filter. pulled fuel rail off, replaced orings, ran new fuel thru line and discarded fuel.cleared egr and plinum. have spark, hear pump activate when key on, just wont start without starter fluid, or run. have no access to fuel pressure gauge,scan test equp.have replaced cam and crank sensors with used ones, have 8 volts on orange wire on both of them have fuel pressure at relief valve. what can cause the injectors to not open? I think thats whats going on right? how can I test? can I make noid light? I live in the middle of nowhere, 100 miles east of anywhere. checkers and kmart all I got any takers/ideas?
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DanD
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/ Moderator
Sep 16, 2009, 7:52 AM
Post #2 of 10
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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Any two wire 12V DC single LED or a low amperage (less then 1 amp draw) 12 V light bulb will work as a “noid” light.
Why I say 1 amp or less draw is that you do not want to burn out the computer’s injector drivers (grounding switch) inside the computer. They (repair information) never seem to give you what an injector draws current wise; but using Ohms law; knowing that battery voltage is approx 12.5 and the max resistance value of any of the injectors is 12 ohms (for this application); we know that the injectors should not be drawing any more then 1.04167 amps. So as long as the light bulb you’re going to use is below that; it shouldn’t hurt the drivers.
Also make sure that when you’re cranking the engine, doing this test; that the test light doesn’t become disconnected. Or for that matter never disconnect an injector’s electrical connector during cranking or if an engine is running. The voltage surge of disconnecting and reconnecting can also burn out the drivers.
This no start could be that all the injectors are stuck shut from sitting for that length of time with the fuel trapped at the injectors turning into varnish?
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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lesonli
User
Sep 16, 2009, 4:55 PM
Post #3 of 10
(3414 views)
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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dand thankyou for the response.as I mentioned (or maybe I didn't) in my post, the vehicle did set for a couple years, but I've completely cleaned out tank, lines, rails, intake, and injectors. I replaced pump, filter, injector orings, pressure regulator, line connector orings, relief valve, and gaskets. Today I replaced spacer paper on ends of both cam and crank sensors. tested and verified 8 volts at each with ign. turned on. Also tested voltage at injector connections for kicks. I have #1 injector showing about 8.5 volts with key on no other injectors showed any significant readings. Is that right? ran the "mil code" test today and got these codes: 12, 35, 24, 11, and end-of-test #55 #24 says that the voltage is either to high or to low at tps. but the engine won't run to verify w/test. #11 says no crank reference detected at cranking. #35 is a fan relay(low). so any how, I put the paper spacers on the crank and cam sensors. with 8 volts going into these sensors, what is the reading coming out to be? By the way, tps with key on run was about 1 volt, and went up to 4 or 5 as I maually opened throttle. Map sensor showed 4.5 on one side, and 5.5 on the other. I still haven't checked fuel pressure with gause, but replaced pump with a new, and do have pressure at relief valve.
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DanD
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Sep 17, 2009, 4:48 AM
Post #4 of 10
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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I’m not sure why you would have any voltage at the injectors with just the ignition on? The ASD (Auto Shut Down) relay is initially energized when the ignition switch is first turned to the run position. It then is shut down (off) after a couple of seconds; if the computer doesn’t see an ignition (RPM) reference. In other words if the engine is not being cranked, the ignition system is not producing spark; there’s not suppose to be power at the injectors, ignition coil, alternator field circuit and a few other devices. Once the engine begins cranking; the crank sensor sends out its signal, the computer reenergizes the ASD and the ASD feeds the system power.
With you saying that there is spark I don’t think you have an issue with the crank sensor?
Have you checked for injector pulse during cranking, with your homemade noid light?
How were you able to clean out the inside of the injectors?
You could also manually energize the injectors with jumper wires and see if they will actually open. Don’t be foolish and leave them energized for any more then a second at a time; just long enough to see if they’ll spry fuel.
With some of the strange things you’re telling us; I would love to nudge you out of the way and get my hands on this thing; kind of hard to do from a keyboard. LOL
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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lesonli
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Sep 17, 2009, 11:06 AM
Post #5 of 10
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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I may have been confused aboput voltage at injector connect. to many days probing, analizing, reading, and cursing. I did however run the mil again and now I am down to #35,( fan relay) #11( crank differencial/no sensor output,/varible sensor output) and #55(end of test). And after running the mil this morning, decided to to it over, and it trier to start without spray. I was beside myself. But still didn't run.I hold the starter on, and it will sorta hit and miss wanting to start with a pop here and there when I let off key. I believe the spacer I put on the crank sensor changed things a bit. So since it is used, I guess I'll break down and buy new one. After that, I guess a new cmp. to answer your question, I soaked the injectors over night, cleaned them up, blew thru the larger holes, but did not try to activate them. They all ohm tested good though, I hate to have to pull them again. running out of ideas money and patience
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DanD
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Sep 17, 2009, 12:51 PM
Post #6 of 10
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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Check for injector pulse; that will take us in one direction or the other once we know the computer is or is not pulsing them.
Like I suggested; try manually energizing the injectors. You should be able to hear them click and if the fuel rail is pressurized; after cranking the engine. You may even hear the pressure dissipating (spraying) out the injector; if they're not plugged up. Leave the injectors installed while doing the manual test and see it the engine will fire for a few seconds, after triggering the injectors. Like I said before don’t go crazy holding an injector on; if they will spray fuel it wouldn’t be hard to wash out the plugs and flood the engine.
This code 11was something; I wasn’t paying to much attention too because you say there’s spark, that it’ll fire with starting fluid and you can hear the fuel pump running, during cranking? That tells me that the PCM is seeing a crank signal, otherwise the ASD wouldn’t be on, too energize the ignition system, fuel pump relay, injectors and whatever else is on the circuit? Yea there’s something there causing the code 11 to set but reading through the test procedures; you need a scanner to verify whether the crank signal is present at the PCM and does the PCM acknowledge crank sensor signal? The voltage going to the sensor (orange wire) is good at the 8 volts but they don’t give us a signal return voltage spec. All it says is to crank engine while observing scan tool; does scan tool display crank senor signal; yes or no. From there it goes on to different ohmmeter tests, depending on the answer above; yes or no signal.
Sorry I haven’t been more help; so maybe throw a new crank sensor on it and see what happens?
BUT I STILL WANT TO KNOW ABOUT INJECTOR PULSE!!!! LOL
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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lesonli
User
Sep 17, 2009, 4:33 PM
Post #7 of 10
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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so here is where I'm at DanD I bought a new crank sens first because it is returnable and cam sens is not (??go figure) so I put it on and no change. so I took it back and got the cam sens. Herer is when I had an ephiney(how ever to spell it) both my sensors are magnetized. both new sensors are not. I don't know if they should be able to pick up a 19mm wrench, since the new ones dont pick up a paper clip. do they get that way after a few rpms or what?I will do the injector thingafter I install cam sens. I hope I don't have to go back and get crank sens too. cuz this old one needs to come off the fridge and back on car. so, I use 12 volts for no more than a second on each injector? and listen for click/spray. after wards try to start. thanks for all this help. be back soon with new info I hope well this just beats all now after checking each injector and hearing a click on each, putting cam and crank sensors back on still wont start. so I took out a plug and I got now spark. what the? I had it this morning! I had it yesterday!!! maybe because my cam sensor isn't magnetize or crank is? I need a drink. how is canada? I've a few customers that come out here in january till march or so to warm up some. damn friendly folks they are! obiously none of them have an intrepid
(This post was edited by lesonli on Sep 17, 2009, 5:32 PM)
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DanD
Veteran
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Sep 18, 2009, 8:44 AM
Post #8 of 10
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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I’m running out of suggestions?
As for the sensors being magnetic; the ones that I remember replacing had a bit of magnetism but I wouldn’t say they’d be able to pick up a wrench. For the heck of it; I ordered out a new crank sensor (I’ll send it back later), that’s suppose to fit a 95 Chrysler 3.5 and it also only has enough to feel that there’s some magnetism ; but it sure wouldn’t hold itself stuck to a metal surface.
So man you’re taking me down some roads I haven’t been on for a long time with this vehicle and like I said I’m not sure what else to suggest?
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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lesonli
User
Sep 18, 2009, 3:04 PM
Post #9 of 10
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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I know. I fixed the spark prob this morning, connection not in all the way.so here is a run down at the moment: 1-I have spark, 2- I have tested ignition according to book, and that seems to check out except one thing which will be at bootom of page.3- I have fuel pressure, just don't know if it is requirement. new pump, regulator filter. 4-I have retested injectors(hot jumpin for second with ign on for fuel pressure spray) heard click each time, but no spray sound, 5 have replaced cam sens 6 have got another pcm and relays at salvage yard, no difference.6- yesterday it would try to start without spray, today after replacing cam sens I have to use spray for it to try to start. I also tried to start after testing injectors. so,when test the ignition coil, I used test light, conected b+ coil connection,turn on ign. and light will flash then crank engine and light will flash momenterlywell my light kept flashing. I will scan page and send. also, how does one go about cleaning the injector inside out? I didn't see how to get inside to clean. they have a c-clip in a groove that has two holes in it which go in a cavity that comes out above the spray nozzles( carb cleaner spray tube)some reason my attachment exceeds to 300kb amount. its a basic page what the ??? I can't even zip it to under 700 kb so oh well
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DanD
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Sep 19, 2009, 2:45 AM
Post #10 of 10
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Re: intrepid only runs on starter floid
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I must be thick or something; you’ve completely lost me here; can you explain again. Remember I'm not there to see any of this; paint me a picture, in text. I like pictures. LOL
Why are you checking the ignition coil’s battery positive, if you have a consistent spark?
Did you mean the injector coils, positive terminals?
When you connect your “noid” light across the injector’s two wire connector; does the light blink, during cranking?
The injector connector should have steady system voltage on one wire; during cranking. The other is ground and is controlled by the computer; it should be pulsing during cranking.
If the injectors are completely plugged; you may need to send them in for reconditioning or replace them with reconditioned injectors.
I don’t in my shop anyway have the equipment to work on the internals of an injector. The times I’ve tried taking an injector apart; well let’s just say that they weren’t going back together.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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