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chas
User
Mar 8, 2016, 10:18 PM
Post #1 of 19
(1908 views)
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94 toyota 22re. oil consumption is up......
last year it failed NOX smog. the smog needed work. the EGR vsv valve on the valve cover was bad, new EGR modulator and new CAT. after the repairs it passed smog good. the problem now is it is using more oil. no leaks on the street where parked and no smoke on a cold start. spark plugs look ok and not fouling. no visible sign of burning oil in the cylinders. it was using very little oil before the fix. any ideas why oil consumption is up?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 8, 2016, 11:26 PM
Post #2 of 19
(1899 views)
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Use of some can be normal with miles and age.
Need to know how much per miles driven and if any leaks found. How many miles on the engine?
T
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kev2
Veteran
Mar 9, 2016, 9:51 AM
Post #4 of 19
(1879 views)
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what is oil consumption?
I believe normal "spec" from Toyota is @1qt per 1K miles....
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 9, 2016, 10:13 AM
Post #5 of 19
(1872 views)
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Agree - 1 qt/1,000 wouldn't surprise me at all. Maybe more. Hey - seems like yesterday that was good for a newer car!
So how many miles per quart? If this happened all at once or by surprise and you are checking it regularly as you should no longer waiting for some light to say to check it OR WORSE a total warning there's probably something to be found.
IMO a 1994 anything that is running well and dependable that uses some is great still. Again, really check it yourself not waiting as the warning you get if not already might not work or the one that mean you are about to be rendered a pedestrian! No joke!
T
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 9, 2016, 10:40 AM
Post #8 of 19
(1858 views)
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OK - You are fine and keep on checking and adding as needed. I do part quarts on my own MUCH older than this but fewer miles.
Don't fall into a famous thing I hear that I use X amount so don't need to change it as it's changing itself by adding now and then unless you are expecting just the last bit out of a car and ready to give up for assorted reasons.
If car is worth a dang this is total pay back now for the care it's had or wouldn't be around now.
BTW - I consider Toyota engine (all) in the lower consumption group for what we call normal vs some others even for 1994. In the era or expecting it do know that warmer weather or a long highway run does use some more and ones that use NONE are probably fooling you by adding dirt in place of oil or worse diluted with some fuel - so it's not a measure of how good an engine is totally.
Always watch for leaks and look for them. Just back from an errand myself and look if there's a spot where I parked and always do.
Mechanic or not I don't feel like a surprise if it's leaving clues - smile,
Tom
Vehicle years (1948, 1988, 1989, 1997) at the moment - all run synthetic and changed on time. Off topic but worst design of all those is the newest!
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chas
User
Mar 9, 2016, 11:11 AM
Post #9 of 19
(1853 views)
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OK - You are fine and keep on checking and adding as needed. I do part quarts on my own MUCH older than this but fewer miles.
Don't fall into a famous thing I hear that I use X amount so don't need to change it as it's changing itself by adding now and then unless you are expecting just the last bit out of a car and ready to give up for assorted reasons.
If car is worth a dang this is total pay back now for the care it's had or wouldn't be around now.
BTW - I consider Toyota engine (all) in the lower consumption group for what we call normal vs some others even for 1994. In the era or expecting it do know that warmer weather or a long highway run does use some more and ones that use NONE are probably fooling you by adding dirt in place of oil or worse diluted with some fuel - so it's not a measure of how good an engine is totally.
Always watch for leaks and look for them. Just back from an errand myself and look if there's a spot where I parked and always do.
Mechanic or not I don't feel like a surprise if it's leaving clues - smile,
Tom
Vehicle years (1948, 1988, 1989, 1997) at the moment - all run synthetic and changed on time. Off topic but worst design of all those is the newest! >>>>>>>>
i always keep an eye on the fluids and watch for leaks.
i use conventional oil because it is not high performance and does not have a higher operating temp like the newer vehicles.
>>>>>Off topic but worst design of all those is the newest!>>>>>>>>
imo, i dunno know if its the design. maybe the extreme high running temp is asking for trouble. the slightest overheat and lack of opening the hood and checking the fluids will destroy it. older cars ran at about 180-192. the new ones are about 212degrees. the oil will be 350 easy.
yikes, thats hot. i see a meltdown.
does anybody have any ideas why oil consumption went up after the fix on the EGR components, corrected the timing and a new TPS?
(This post was edited by chas on Mar 9, 2016, 11:17 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 9, 2016, 11:27 AM
Post #10 of 19
(1844 views)
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Not sure why oil consumption went up with EGR repair/fix? It may not just be putting hot exhaust as it should where it might, only a maybe be a reason but not likely.- Synthetic vs conventional? Newer cars don't really run any hotter than they did in the 1960s so that's wrong. It's true that electric fanned vehicles will normally wait till over the boiling point to turn on fans so you will see coolant temps of 230ish and normal - not the temps you mentioned for oil at all. If oil was always exposed to that and wasn't just passing over it would sludge right up. Synthetic and you can try it in a super hot frying pan (outdoors in safe test setting) put a drop of your conventional and a drop of real 100% synthetic in pan you'll see the conventional burn or go like burnt butter and synthetic just change color maybe to a point of course.
Now some oil consumption is might also be you now have a hotter spot where oil sets and isn't draining back to oil pan fast enough and making sludge that stays there no longer showing as the oil level when checked?
I feel the pain of price of synthetic but it's also sold in 5qt containers so not so bad. A wrecked engine because of NOT using it costs lots more of course.
Example: Friend and customer - a Nissan something blew the plastic radiator plug out of radiator for reasons unknown to me. Well, it overheated badly at highway speeds before noticed and did blow a head gasket. Engine was still clean, clean, clean and would have expected burnt butter sludge it was clearly so hot.
If old enough - remember Clara Pellar? "Where's the Beef?" was the line of a commercial she made famous. Point made - my cars and engines run as new - all of them, higher or lower miles if cared for and no joke synthetic in even lawnmowers and chainsaws with oil/gas mixes,
Tom
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kev2
Veteran
Mar 9, 2016, 11:53 AM
Post #11 of 19
(1840 views)
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still do not know quarts in 1k miles.
Its academic -that is for new Toyotas and I believe the long term standard they use to consider high consumption- Your issue is the change from normal to a new rate of consumption,
doing the what if type thinking-
check PCV - look for tubing being wet with oil...
check for excess blow by when oil fill cap removed...
Maybe temporally disable EGR and see if it returns to 'normal' its to easy to not try... just disable vacuum - TEMPORALLY.
nothing else has changed- same type and brand oil, same air filter, same thermostat, basically everything the same except VSV, EGR and CAT?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 9, 2016, 12:10 PM
Post #12 of 19
(1837 views)
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OP did say it's using about 1qt/1,000 now which is more than before? Still not worried about that much myself.
Sorry for the rant about synthetics but they've been excellent for me personally and worth it. Claims of better fuel mileage could be argued but one machine I have that is pull start, 12.5 HP owned from new now old first change to synthetic the damn thing pulls lots easier! Kinds proves the argument on lowering friction at least hence less heat where you don't want it anyway.
I like Kev2's ideas as well. One trick for some works is pull oil dipstick just up or out and with a cigarette or something that produces smoke it should by rights draw the smoke in no push it out which means PCV system isn't overcoming blowby. That either wear or it's not working,
T
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chas
User
Mar 9, 2016, 6:12 PM
Post #13 of 19
(1826 views)
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Not sure why oil consumption went up with EGR repair/fix? It may not just be putting hot exhaust as it should where it might, only a maybe be a reason but not likely. - Synthetic vs conventional? Newer cars don't really run any hotter than they did in the 1960s so that's wrong. It's true that electric fanned vehicles will normally wait till over the boiling point to turn on fans so you will see coolant temps of 230ish and normal - not the temps you mentioned for oil at all. If oil was always exposed to that and wasn't just passing over it would sludge right up. Synthetic and you can try it in a super hot frying pan (outdoors in safe test setting) put a drop of your conventional and a drop of real 100% synthetic in pan you'll see the conventional burn or go like burnt butter and synthetic just change color maybe to a point of course.
Now some oil consumption is might also be you now have a hotter spot where oil sets and isn't draining back to oil pan fast enough and making sludge that stays there no longer showing as the oil level when checked? I feel the pain of price of synthetic but it's also sold in 5qt containers so not so bad. A wrecked engine because of NOT using it costs lots more of course. Example: Friend and customer - a Nissan something blew the plastic radiator plug out of radiator for reasons unknown to me. Well, it overheated badly at highway speeds before noticed and did blow a head gasket. Engine was still clean, clean, clean and would have expected burnt butter sludge it was clearly so hot. If old enough - remember Clara Pellar? "Where's the Beef?" was the line of a commercial she made famous. Point made - my cars and engines run as new - all of them, higher or lower miles if cared for and no joke synthetic in even lawnmowers and chainsaws with oil/gas mixes, Tom
>>>>>Now some oil consumption is might also be you now have a hotter spot where oil sets and isn't draining back to oil pan fast enough and making sludge that stays there no longer showing as the oil level when checked?>>>>>not sure but i think you mean there is sludge in the cylinder head passages back down to the oil pan....i had the valve cover of several times. no sludge in the cylinder head. seems to be draining back to the pan ok......btw, i check the oil in the morning before a cold start. check it again after sitting for a little while before a restart if out for the day.
(This post was edited by chas on Mar 9, 2016, 6:50 PM)
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chas
User
Mar 9, 2016, 6:36 PM
Post #14 of 19
(1824 views)
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still do not know quarts in 1k miles.
Its academic -that is for new Toyotas and I believe the long term standard they use to consider high consumption- Your issue is the change from normal to a new rate of consumption,
doing the what if type thinking-
check PCV - look for tubing being wet with oil...
check for excess blow by when oil fill cap removed...
Maybe temporally disable EGR and see if it returns to 'normal' its to easy to not try... just disable vacuum - TEMPORALLY.
nothing else has changed- same type and brand oil, same air filter, same thermostat, basically everything the same except VSV, EGR and CAT? >>>>>>>
>>>>> doing the what if type thinking-
check PCV - look for tubing being wet with oil...
check for excess blow by when oil fill cap removed...
Maybe temporally disable EGR and see if it returns to 'normal' its to easy to not try... just disable vacuum - TEMPORALLY.>>>>>
i was probably going to do the same. new pcv and hoses all good. ill disconnect the VSV plugin to disable the VSV valve in the closed position(no vacuum) then run it for a few days and check the oil again.
i have pulled the pcv valve and oil filler cap while running. no blowby smoke from the pcv valve port on the top of the valve cover. stalled immediatly from too much air..no smoke from the oil filler cap when running. thers alot of crankcase pressure when running but no BlowBy smoke.
>>>>>nothing else has changed- same type and brand oil, same air filter, same thermostat, basically everything the same except VSV, EGR and CAT?>>>>>>> new VSV, TPS and CAT. no other changes. all stock parts at my local parts stores. i have changed brands of oil and use a bigger oil filter other than the puny little oil filter. been using a FRAM PH8A for years from the cross-reference.
(This post was edited by chas on Mar 9, 2016, 8:01 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 9, 2016, 11:44 PM
Post #15 of 19
(1791 views)
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Just a note to take note of: Any which type of oil you just said you changed brands - that can and will matter.
Oil filter change of size? Not so sure that matters. If proper for the engine and not touching anything wrong probably not part of this. IMO and a guess is they make smaller ones so they would fit for particular vehicles using same engines. IMO again, if an oil filter was catching so much debris it's NOT the problem the cause of making DEBRIS is!
PCV and crankcase must be right. If crankcase doesn't hold about 1/2 inches of Hg in vacuum at say the dipstick tube it's leaking somewhere or overwhelmed by blow-by which is usually piston ring to cylinder wall wear normally passes some NEW but at some point wear wins then stuff happens but not generally all at once.
All things using and connected to engine's manifold vacuum matter. PCV, valve covers, hoses, devices that use or monitor vacuum and even that damn dipstick is sealed. All of it matters now and when car was new as well,
T
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chas
User
Mar 10, 2016, 1:34 AM
Post #16 of 19
(1787 views)
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Just a note to take note of: Any which type of oil you just said you changed brands - that can and will matter.
Oil filter change of size? Not so sure that matters. If proper for the engine and not touching anything wrong probably not part of this. IMO and a guess is they make smaller ones so they would fit for particular vehicles using same engines. IMO again, if an oil filter was catching so much debris it's NOT the problem the cause of making DEBRIS is!
PCV and crankcase must be right. If crankcase doesn't hold about 1/2 inches of Hg in vacuum at say the dipstick tube it's leaking somewhere or overwhelmed by blow-by which is usually piston ring to cylinder wall wear normally passes some NEW but at some point wear wins then stuff happens but not generally all at once.
All things using and connected to engine's manifold vacuum matter. PCV, valve covers, hoses, devices that use or monitor vacuum and even that damn dipstick is sealed. All of it matters now and when car was new as well,
T >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>i went to a bigger and better oil filter because it and the pan will hold more oil and last a little longer between oil changes. the puny little filters are not real good. spend a few bucks for a better filter will be well worth it. i think i had a choice of Fram, Purolater and Wix.
new vacuum hoses last year with all the other fixes for smog. checked all the pcv and vacuum ports too make sure they had plenty of vacuum and no air leaks. the air screw on the TB is works. idles good.
on the blowby thing, the spark plugs are good, not fouling, burning a tan color and dont show signs of oil burning with carbon build up.
no smoke out the pcv hole or the oil fill when removed when running so its a mystery.
have not noticed lately but awhile back i did notice the idle will drop a little when i pull the dipstick out to check the oil level. ill look again at the dipstick.
im not sure of what you are saying but i think you are suggesting......
1. changing oil brands will make a difference because of the different qualities in the oils.
2. there is too much crankcase pressure creating blowby and i should maybe try going back to the original small oil filter to maybe correct the crankcase pressure?
3. how does an oil filter change the crankcase pressure? its just a filter.
(This post was edited by chas on Mar 10, 2016, 2:06 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 10, 2016, 2:28 AM
Post #17 of 19
(1776 views)
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The end all is there might be no problem at all with this. An old, higher mile engine will use some oil normally.
Oil filter? I'm of the opinion that there really shouldn't be much to catch meaning dirt/debris (call it what you wish) or the engine is making particles of junk and really shouldn't be. Oil filters do add to oil fill capacity but doesn't really add any significant amount to alter change intervals at all and more capacity doesn't mean longer intervals either as it all has been hot, cold many times and additives lose their original properties that make it meet specs for the car.
There's also some dilution with non oil going on and you want that OUT of the mix.
BTW - Oil filters are only catching some of the oil pumped around. If lots is being pumped it will by pass it totally to keep flow and pressure up to spec or engines wouldn't last long at all. Prehistoric but oil filters at all were once an option or add on - some would just use a screen for serious metal debris or a magnet and do still on some.
The blow-by thing is normal and planned for. Rings on a piston do NOT ever make a perfect seal, some combustion gasses pass by called blow-by which is oily smoke in crankcase anything then burned up thru the PCV system. If left without being able to a few things happen, one that internal smog is harmful to the engine, it creates pressure which will cause gaskets not meant for pressure leak when they wouldn't have otherwise just two of the bad things.
It's not always blow-by bur rather failure of the system via PCV design and any hoses and ports that make it work plus ventilate into crankcase filtered air to replace what was take out and burned. The systems just plain last longer if oil is changed regularly.
I don't agree with extra additives or all the ratings of oil marked on containers. It might pass those test once when new for a test and think the rest is marketing nonsense. I see oil for old engines sold, oil that can last 15,000 miles and such is just to get you to try or buy it IMO.
************************
Hey - Types and life of a car and it's engine is subject to how it's treated, where it is, products used. If you've taken care of it for most or all of its life you've done something right for it already. Many don't last that long at all.
Trying to be concise and failing at that: Oil brands and changing can consume more oil or less because the maker chose the additives some might be cleaning out some things another left behind and some might allow more build up, lose viscosity intended (thickness of it) quickly or slowly but it all does in time/miles.
Dang engine is exposed to so much in real life use the only thing is keep it at proper level and change it on time. The time/miles it's still good is unique IMO to each car and the conditions exposed to.
It's not in a stable environment, run at the exact same temp all the time or would last indefinitely IMO.
Again - there may not be a real problem so continue to check as you do, many folks don't do squat till things don't run at all so good for you.
You are getting opinions from techs with assorted experiences over quite some years of what was noticed but can speak best for (of course) what I've had and kept, driven and know what conditions a car or thing has been in which isn't the same as the next person or tech exactly nor do I know what happens to a car/vehicle when out of my sight or don't see it again?
Again, keep on checking things like you are doing. Know that techs see the problems not all the vehicles and machines that didn't have one so there's a slant there.
Credit to you for asking for what can only be suggestions, observations and opinions we have as VOLUNTEERS totally free site to use for your best interest with our thoughts and experiences.
Carry on. If something is still wrong or you don't agree that's fine. Plain broken in front of someone via a web site just isn't going to be perfect,
T
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chas
User
Mar 10, 2016, 3:45 AM
Post #18 of 19
(1769 views)
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>>>>>The end all is there might be no problem at all with this. An old, higher mile engine will use some oil normally. <<<<<
i agree. cylinders and rings wear. normal for some BB to get by. it was using very little oil until the EGR fix. started using more oil. i agree that maybe there is maybe too much crankcase pressure pushing the oil out. where i dunno. the plugs are clean. no crude, oil crusty junk no blue or black smoke.
>>>>>There's also some dilution with non oil going on and you want that OUT of the mix. >>>>>>
not sure what you mean. i guess you mean antifreeze and moisture in the air and the air intake. there does not seem to be any mixing of oil and fluids in the oil and coolent. pcv and oil fill cap is clean with no signs of mixing.
>>>>>Prehistoric but oil filters at all were once an option or add on - some would just use a screen for serious metal debris or a magnet and do still on some>>>>>>
yeah, i remember way back some used a roll of toilet paper in the canister and air filters on the carb were oil filled.
>>>>> The blow-by thing is normal and planned for.>>>>>
yes, but it all changed over night with the EGR system fix. carbon in the TB, bad EGR VSV valve, plugged vacuum line, bad modulator, bad TPS and timing not right.
>>>>>I don't agree with extra additives or all the ratings of oil marked on containers.>>>>>>well, i have been using an oil additive to thicken the oil because of the timing chain and tensioner thing every time i change out the oil. something like STP in a small blue plastic container for about $2.50. its real thick like honey. in the colder months i have to warm it up to get it out of the container.
>>>>> Types and life of a car and it's engine is subject to how it's treated, where it is, products used. If you've taken care of it for most or all of its life you've done something right for it already. Many don't last that long at all. >>>>>
ive only had it about 2 1/2 yrs. got it as a fixer. all 4cylinders seem to have compression on the start. no puff of blue or black smoke on the start. ran ok but needed work. i looked at a lot small trucks. they were worse and wanted $5k. lol and walked.
>>>>>
Again - there may not be a real problem so continue to check as you do, many folks don't do squat till things don't run at all so good for you. >>>>>>it may or may not have a problem. ill keep looking around.
>>>>>Credit to you for asking for what can only be suggestions, observations and opinions we have as VOLUNTEERS totally free site to use for your best interest with our thoughts and experiences.
Carry on. If something is still wrong or you don't agree that's fine. Plain broken in front of someone via a web site just isn't going to be perfect, >>>>> yeah, Tom, its real hard to give you a picture of this in a web forum without seeing the vehicle IRL. i do appreciate your time and opinions. way back before we had PCs and the web i went to the library.
(This post was edited by chas on Mar 10, 2016, 4:08 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 10, 2016, 6:31 AM
Post #19 of 19
(1751 views)
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Ok, I think thread is coming to all we can suggest or do. I will say use of the thick STP is not helping the engine for the long run but usually an attempt to thicken oil so it DOESN'T burn as fast at the cost of thicker oil which is slower to build proper pressure on cold starts which is making wear faster.
Why this picked when EGR was fixed might remain a mystery.
The one change is type or brand of oil may be the factor right now.
Twas a while ago I was finding myself with regular cars I tended to needed a touch more after a common # of 5 qt oil and filter changes?
Was using single qt bottles at the time was able to buy wholesale in that size and finally measured VERY carefully if a whole qt. was in each bottle and found NOT. Each was off by less than but close to an ounce!
I also use a dripping rack still if only for my own now but noted it took about 20+ qts of single cans left for quite a while each would make about one whole new quart! Dripping racks were in common use at gas stations at the pumps selling lots of oil back when, when all oil at pumps was sold by quart and punch cans if only to stop a mess but was new oil just assorted and unknown useful for filling oil cans for other things or some may have saved up enough for an oil change that shouldn't be for a customer.
Hard to be sure on how full what we buy really is or how much you really get out if doing what I was. Some days colder and oil just thicker or how much time you gave each when installing it.
Small things can matter. If a company is packaging less product than stated that's plain wrong.
Off to chit chat about it but own VERY accurate postal scale/kitchen uses or other and finally found more than one coffee container short by brand with an empty tare weight of one as the measure. Can't prove that either but came close to bringing that up where I purchased that product!
Do we really get what is stated on things by weight or volume? I'll never be sure but when checked it's interesting that I didn't find more by mistake!!!!!!
Back to cars. I have changed marks on newer car's dipsticks (one brand car had this issue) of them not reading exactly right and I'd re-mark the dipsticks for a true "FULL" line and a true "ONE QUART LOW" line quite simply by only adding (my own cars not everyone's) one quart low on purpose and check the next whole day. Was/is also useful for knowing when cars with plain low oil level warnings or "check oil" lights not the low oil pressure but level how low they needed to be to warn you.
For the record those with that feature and time to fuss with things like that usually waited till 1+1/2 quart low for a warning of level, not a pressure warning as said so now lost trust in that feature. For any friends, family have always suggested real checks on a schedule for those that have that as many just a wire fallen off gave you no warning or a warning that didn't exist!
Totally back to off topic: Yes I do recall what looked exactly like a roll of toilet paper as the optional oil filter or the one a car came with.
Let's not show our ages too much about stuff like that!
Side notes I'm famous for: Wix was my favorite brand for filters in general vs others. Read who now owns the company if you ever did and you'll be in for surprises. Many are just the name now and not owned nor made by company things once were! Sad to me as once a favorite proved itself now is back to a guessing game,
Been fun for me - hope helpful for you and glad you pay attention as we know most folks don't,
Tom
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1989 toyota pickup 3.0 crank no start
Please Help - Knock sound & engine fail
