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1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 11, 2013, 2:11 PM
Post #26 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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That's your problem, I'm single.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Daelomin
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Dec 11, 2013, 2:24 PM
Post #27 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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Hammer Time, I'm not sure what your problem with me is, but you've had a bad attitude towards me from the start. You seem to be the one with hurt feelings and the need to take them out on a complete stranger, not me. Don't think I haven't noticed how you edited the attitude out of your earlier posts once Tom and others started offering their assistance.
I haven't assumed anyone on here to be psychic or a therapist, and I certainly don't feel like anyone is obligated to hear me out and help me. That's why I iterated earlier that if my inexperience and lack of knowledge makes me unwelcome here, just let me know and you won't see me around here again.
As for your Yellow Pages comment, that's absolutely ridiculous. You don't get a much more perfect situation for using the internet as this. I have a problem that needs fixing, and I can't get a mechanic to look at it in person. I'm not going to call one up and try to tell them all this, and make multiple calls a day, taking away from their valuable time. Here, I can post what I observe and try, and get feedback from people on their own time about what else to try or not try.
I am extremely appreciative of the help Tom and others are offering, and they have no obligation to continue doing so. I've learned a lot just from this thread over the past couple days, and I look forward to learning more and solving this problem, thereby becoming more self sufficient in the process. If you have a problem with how I'm coming across, either tell me straight up my kind of inquiry isn't welcome here, or if not that, just ignore this thread. It's not like you've offered any help anyway.
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Daelomin
User
Dec 11, 2013, 4:18 PM
Post #29 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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Ok, so I tried a couple things. At Tom's suggestion, I gave the cable going from the solenoid to the starter a bit of a tug and tried again: no luck. So, I decided to try a direct connection from the battery to the starter. Nothing so dramatic as with jumper cables though, I wanted to try to use the wiring that was already in place.
I made a bit of an album with descriptions of what I did here: http://imgur.com/a/oKLq0
Here's a fuller description anyway. (Quick safety disclaimer: I took precautions by wearing good gloves with rubber handgrips and eye protection. Thanks for keeping my safety in mind.)
As I noted in the other pictures I took before, I tested the voltage at the right solenoid post (where the cable from the positive battery terminal connects to the solenoid). As expected, I got 12.5 V. However, since I don't have a helper around to turn the key, I haven't been able to test if I'm getting voltage to the right solenoid post, which is where the cable leading to the starter motor is attached.
To bypass this, I disconnected the cable leading to the starter motor from the LEFT solenoid post, and I touched it to the RIGHT (hot) solenoid post. It is my understanding (PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG) that this should have started the starter motor up if everything was as it should be. However, it did not. No spark, no sound, absolutely nothing.
Since this didn't appear to do anything, I decided I needed to check the voltage at the starter motor itself. I disconnected the ground cable from the negative battery terminal and permanently connected the cable leading to the starter motor to the RIGHT (hot) solenoid post. I then reconnected the ground to the negative battery terminal and quickly went under the truck to test the voltage. I had the black lead from the meter on the chassis and I poked the red lead all over the wire connection to the starter motor, and all I got for voltage was in the range of 0.1-0.2 V. I hopped back out from under the truck quick and disconnected the battery again.
At this point, it is my understanding (again, correct me if I'm wrong) that this means that there's some kind of problem with the cable leading to the starter motor.
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Daelomin
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Dec 11, 2013, 5:39 PM
Post #30 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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I can see now why my buddy said tracking down electrical problems in a vehicle can be the most frustrating experience!
After deciding that the problem must be with the cable leading to the starter motor, I figured I should remove it and have a look at it. However, before doing that I wanted to be sure because it did not look like an easy job.
In order to be sure, I disconnected the battery, then disconnected the cable from the starter motor. Then I disconnected the other end of the cable from the solenoid and connected it to the positive terminal on the battery. I reconnected the ground cable to the negative terminal on the battery and checked for voltage between the chassis (black lead) and the end of the cable connected to the positive terminal on the battery (red lead). I got 12.8 V. So there was electricity going IN to the cable. Now to see if electricity was coming OUT of it. I crawled under the truck and checked voltage again, this time between the chassis (black lead) and the now-free end of the cable that used to be connected to the starter motor (red lead). I got about 1.0 V.
A HA! (or so I think), it's definitely the cable! So I spent the next hour trying as carefully as I could to extract the cable. It was really difficult because of how wrapped up it was in crap, taped up with other cables, etc. etc. But I finally got it free. I inspected it, it looked fine, so I decided to test it again. Reconnected one end to the positive terminal on the battery, tested between the chassis and the end of the cable, and what did I get? About 12.8 V.
Evidently, the cable is now fine. Why i was getting low voltage on it when it was still in place I have no idea. Any suggestions on next steps would be greatly appreciated!
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 11, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #31 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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Does the solenoid on the fender clack when you turn the ignition to start?
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 12, 2013, 12:56 AM
Post #32 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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Back after a snooze - sorry. As DS said so concisely, does solenoid clack at all? Bet not. Not looking it up but that fender mounted solenoid should have a small wire post and the housing marked with an "S" - the wire may just push onto that or with a nut. If that gets battery + power either with key or jumped to it, it should send the full battery power on to starter. If not there's the trouble spot.
True - we have to take all safety into consideration not knowing skills or tools being used. Again, suggestions are all by volunteers and by nature not being right there easy to miss what could be obvious at a glance if right there.
Didn't you say this truck was a standard shift? This if engine isn't locked or seized would be running in 5 minutes if right there with the right helper,
T
(edit) Just looked at pics. Solenoid is not original as it has the "resistor" post used for vehicles with points. They come with both so don't stock both types. The push on one triggers is with red wire in that pic. Those crimp connection are not OE for other reasons and not the best for exposed anything. Not the no crank issue IMO. Post at starter should have full battery voltage when solenoid engages or jumped. It it doesn't something went wrong. If it did and starter did nothing the starter would be highly suspect...... T))
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Dec 12, 2013, 1:04 AM)
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Daelomin
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Dec 12, 2013, 9:58 AM
Post #33 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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The solenoid on the fender that I took the pictures of does indeed "clack" when the ignition is turned. Sorry I forgot to mention that earlier, but I determined that the one day I had a buddy over to give me a hand. What I was originally calling a "clunk" sound when the ignition key was turned is actually the "clack" coming from that solenoid.
I also determined that pulling the center "push-on" connection in the top center of the solenoid makes it so it no longer "clacks" when the ignition is turned, meaning that push-on connection is the wire coming from the ignition switch.
Tom, the truck is indeed standard shift... how do you suggest getting it running in 5 minutes with the right helper?
As for post at starter getting full voltage, that's what I was trying to determine yesterday. I had the cable connected directly to the + terminal on the battery and was reading no voltage at the other end when tested. That's why I ripped the cable out. BUT, for some weird reason, when I tested the cable again after ripping it out of the vehicle it's getting full voltage through it now, almost like there was some kind of short in it before I ripped it out. Later on I'm going to try touching the hot cable to the starter again when I know for a fact that voltage is coming out the end of the cable.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 12, 2013, 10:29 AM
Post #34 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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OK - It clacks so trigger wire works, solenoid may not let power thru it, cable may not let power on to starter, starter wont take it (bad inside) or engine is locked as already said and not ruled out quite yet.
Locked is seized for any reason or if liquid (water(coolant), fuel, anything) got into a cylinder it wouldn't compress and stop there. If so was already mentioned that taking plugs out if that it should spit the liquid out plug hole. That's a whole new ball game if so.
The standard you could just PROPERLY pull the dang truck to a spot such that it would roll by itself (a hill) and pop the clutch with ignition key set to run. Yes you could tow it and do the same but if person in truck didn't know exactly what to do you can just see the problem if it starts and slamming into tow vehicle so worried about anyone trying that crap unless you know exactly what you are doing - both vehicles in concert or a disaster!
READERS, DON'T DO THAT! LET PROS DEAL WITH THAT STUFF AND ONLY IN TOTAL EMERGENCIES WHEN NO OTHER CHANCE IS AVAILABLE! Might not work either so careful where you end up too. If I had to try every possible thing that could go wrong it would be a total book.
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It's totally age old but that was the original purpose in part for running boards! You pushed a car, jumped in and popped the clutch kinda 1930s revisited, then and now might not work either.
YOU said this was your first standard didn't you? Get two other people if you even think about tricks of the sort that know that hands down - both vehicles could be damaged or someone hurt or worse,
T
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Daelomin
User
Dec 20, 2013, 12:02 PM
Post #35 of 38
(1631 views)
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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UPDATE
Long story short: the truck is back up and running again, right as rain.
Short story long:
After the last posts and tests that I did I was pretty certain that the starter was the issue because the fender solenoid worked properly, the starter was getting voltage, and yet nothing was happening. I borrowed some fancy hinged socket extensions from my Dad which allowed me to get at the bolts on the starter motor so that I could remove it.
Once it was removed, I bench tested it and it still didn't work. So, I took it to my Dad's and we bench tested it there again: still no go. Then, being the curious types that we are, we decided to crack her open. Sure enough, as soon as we got in there it was apparent that the starter was the problem. Bits of what I could only describe as "filings" of copper and little globs of what looked like melted copper came out, and the cloth wrapping the coils on the inside were all shredded. Upon further inspection, it appears a couple of the twisted copper wires became detached from their holdings and proceeded to shred the insides when it was still rotating.
A quick trip to NAPA for a remanufactured starter motor and throwing that baby on the truck later, I was back up and running.
The only thing I'm still weirded out about all this is why it made such a weird noise on the second day when all I did was push in the clutch. All I can think of is that pushing in the clutch (completing the ignition circuit to the starter) shorted out the circuit and that's what caused the noises.
Thanks everyone for all your help!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 20, 2013, 4:21 PM
Post #36 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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OK, that starter was toast. The noise first is interesting from only pushing the clutch. IDK, might be worth seeing if flywheel it on tight?? Dunno why it would do that on its own unless left wrong from recently being there??
You might want to check that thru I hope just an inspection shield for anything funky about it,
T
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Daelomin
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Dec 23, 2013, 11:53 AM
Post #37 of 38
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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Well, this truck officially hates me :)
After switching out for a new starter motor, she worked great for a few days. She was being used every day and there were no issues, started up right away with the new motor and everything was back as it should be.
Then, last night, something happened. The fiancee and I used the truck to go to a friend's house just down the road a ways. Normally we would have just walked but it was dark as pitch and the weather was horrendous (freezing rain/sleet). Took the truck down and I was doing a 3-point turn to get the truck facing the other way (towards home) when we were ready to leave and due to the ice and snow making it difficult to maneuver I stalled her a couple times.
First stall she started up again right away with no issues, but when I went to start after the last stall she fired up, but there was that sound again, like I described before but worse this time. I can't be sure, but it sounded like the starter motor again being engaged continuously and wouldn't stop. Again, it wouldn't stop even when the key was out of the ignition. Taking the key out would stop the main engine but the sound was still going. Putting the key back in the ignition, the main engine fired up again WITHOUT TURNING THE KEY ALL THE WAY. The engine would fire up just turning the key to "on". I pulled the key out again and although the engine stopped, it still sounded like something was running full blast, and starting to sound very rough. It continued for a good 5 minutes, all the while I'm at a loss for what to do and wondering if my truck is going to explode because it sounds like a banshee even when the key is out. After about 5 minutes, suddenly everything went dead.
And now she's STONE COLD dead. Last time when she wouldn't start, the electricals all still worked at least (headlights, fans, dashboard lights, open door buzzer etc). Now NOTHING is working... not even when she hooked up to another running vehicle with jumper cables.
I'm at a loss, especially considering how it was working fine for a few days after switching out the starter motor. Based on the sounds I heard last night, I'd bet good money that the new starter is burnt out now too. Seems to me that the burnt out starter from the first incident was just a SYMPTOM of a much larger problem, not the problem itself.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Dec 23, 2013, 12:46 PM
Post #38 of 38
(1595 views)
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Re: 1991 Ford F-150 won't start
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Good idea to replace the starter relay on the fender when you replace a starter motor on one of those.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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